AI Deciphered preview: He keeps AI from going off the marketing rails

[00:00] Hey, it’s Marc. His life science firms. Look to implement a host of digital technology, like machine learning and artificial intelligence form a compliance directors are having their our. [00:11] You see AI raises a raft of legal and ethical challenges and in an area is consequential Health. Those Stakes are even higher in short no one makes a move without the blessing of their colleagues from the compliance Department. However, legal experts insurance that biopharma companies tap into the explosion of AI without compromising ethics or stepping outside of regulatory guard rails. That’s the theme of a highly anticipated panel coming up later this week at MM+M’s first annual AI Deciphered Summit in New York City. [00:38] Our Guest this week Merck digital privacy officer Nevada heft will offer a snake peak of his panel discussion and explain why setting up AI governance frameworks are key to safely adopting AI in this industry and be sure to listen to the end of my interview with Nevada to hear special AI decipher discount code just for all our loyal podcast listeners. [00:59] And in this week’s Trends segment will discuss digital Health firms decision to offer a compounded GLP-1 drug through a new weight loss program heralded through an ad in the Wall Street Journal and a recent VeeV activation around HIV awareness in the south. [01:13] I’m Marc Iskowitz editor at large and welcome to the MM+M Podcast medical marketing media and Healthcare marketing writ large. [01:35] Hi, Nevada, how are you and welcome to the MM+M podcast. [01:38] Yes, thanks. I’m really happy to be here. I am looking forward to our panel in a few days and I would really like to have a thorough discussion about AI governance great. Well, we look forward to having that discussion with you. Of course your digital privacy officer at Mark and a good part of your job involves setting up those AI governance Frameworks, but first before we get to that I was hoping that you could kind of tell folks a little bit about yourself and your role as digital privacy officer. [02:13] about a half [02:15] I’m an attorney former. I work in the Privacy office though, not illegal and basically what my role is is interpretation of privacy laws and application of reasonable business processes. So transforming those laws and requirements. We have onto the law into things that are easy for the business to follow and make sure that we’re being a compliant organization. [02:40] So I’m sort of that bridge between peer compliance and peer legal and I think it’s really a fun role and so my official title is director of digital privacy. And basically what that means is anything involving data particularly like big data analysis new and emerging Technologies and really anything on mine from, you know, cookies tracking Technologies to sort of new cloud service providers that were using [03:09] That sort of within my remit so it’s pretty wide but in general I also sort of have a side job at work of going around and building new business processes for assessments. And so I’ve worked on it through our third party due diligence a large Consolidated third party to dealing with platform for our company that sort of any assessment that we send to a third party. [03:36] I have also built new ones for our privacy assessments and now sort of establishing the governance for our AI program. I’m part of the cross-functional team with AI experts it legal and compliance. So it’s really nice to be able to build something from the ground up with the cross-functional team. Yeah, and we’re gonna you know, give folks out there sneak preview of the guardrails panel discussion as well. But just to follow up question to that. What is the difference between the Privacy office and the compliance office? [04:12] And privacy would be the same department and we are generally both within ethics and compliance privacy is Standalone from the rest of compliance simply due to the sort of size of the number of employees required to ensure privacy compliance. There’s a lot of really complex privacy laws out there and it hit a lot of different factors of the business. So Contracting inventory, right your records of processing activities privacy impact assessments data protection impact assessments are interactions with data security. So we have like so many people that we sort of ended up forming our own Department with a small number of lawyers that liaise with our legal operations. [05:00] So it’s a it’s nice to have it separate and sort of be in a specialist role. So in general it is still a compliance function, but it just stands on its own due to the sort of size of the organizational required. Okay, and then handling and dealing with a lot of things that medical marketers are grappling with but from a privacy and ethics standpoint. I’d like to highlight some aspects of your role that our audience of mainly medical marketers may or may not be aware of ensuring ethical and legal compliance as the company implements AI is obviously achieved part of your role. And you said you sit on that, you know cross-functional team the industry of course has a duty to operate in compliance fashion for a large multinational biopharma company. What are the unique ethical challenges that are raised by AI that Pharma marketers may not appreciate. Yeah, so [05:57] there are a lot of really interesting as [06:01] I think one of the reasons AI is going to be so big in the marketing field is there’s such potential, right and of course there will always be risk introduced but as long as that risk is evaluated properly and you have proper Protections in place, then it’s something that I think most organizations will be able to onboard quickly. So, you know a couple examples of things that are already widespread in the industry is the use of externally facing cat stops for interactions with customers and patients, right? That’s something that’s going to be really big and marketing in the future AI sort of acting as an intermediary between the company and customers whether it’s directly in Pharma or outside of farmer. However, you can always see problems emerging with that, right? [06:49] Is this AI allowed to make agreements? [06:53] On behalf of the company. I know I forget which airline it was now I meant to look it up before this but an airline and this was sort of a large court case recently empowered their AI to make discounts and other interactions for the sale of airline tickets, right and this individual managed to sort of fool the AI into giving like a 99% discount on all tickets and it went to court and it had to be a pretty large and and robust court case to figure out that in fact [07:28] because it was authorized by the company to make finding agreements. They had to stand by that 99% discount. You can’t say. Oh well because you you talk to it you can you can get out of allowing those discounts. So this is something that well is really important when you’re thinking about how you’re going to be using AI is there was a traditional data security and privacy and all that. But there’s these whole new of how the public interacts with an understands AI. So yeah. [07:59] Obviously externally facing chatbots are going to be a huge risk, and I’d love to go into that more. Also, you’re going to be seeing things like tailored advertisements right anytime that you have a profile of an individual used to tailor advertisements to them. And this is something that you know, also not specific to Pharma but is possible for AIS to adjustment on the fly to these advertisements to make them more tailored to the individual, you know, if they know a male maybe something in your market research will show certain things will be more effective towards me. [08:33] and this obviously opens the door though to risks of bias Ricks of prejudice and things that you are really not hoping and so hoping would be generated by the AI but ai’s are generally things that are [08:49] They are not. [08:51] Super aware of the prejudices that they are perpetrating, right? So AI is only work off of the training data you give them and if it ends up creating something Prejudice, what you’ve done is basically allowed this training data to inform a decision that knows even being is looking at so things like live ai-powered advertisements really interesting conceptually. However, because sort of by the nature of it is on the Fly and tailored to the individual based on you know, the tracking technology cookies and profiles you have about them. You’ve run the risk of unexpected things happening and without a human in the Lutheran to overseas that it’s also introduces risk. So again something that could be really beneficial but without the right safe guard could lead to liability and reputational damages. Hmm, right and with all those Downstream risks sort of being sort of definitely on our Collective Radars you mitigate those [09:51] Through the AI governance Frameworks, I would imagine which we’ll get to in a minute. Is that okay? That is the main way back to our industry for a second in a recent survey. Mmm deployed among the life sciences industry about 70% of medical marketers on both the manufacturer and agency side said medical marketing is behind on AI and you can’t I can’t help but you know conservative doing some cross comparisons to other areas of health care. I know you know hospitals and medical centers are really experimenting a lot with AI as well. And so once the 94% of you know, Healthcare organizations are using AI or machine learning at some capacity, it’s a little bit apples to oranges there. But you know, why is it perhaps so hard for biopharma organizations to take advantage of the explosion of AI. You know, what do you see is the biggest pain points or impediments from a legal ethical point of view. Yeah. So I think one of the [10:51] Kind of interesting because I recently was or I’m going to be on sort of a different panel in about a month and one of the discussion topics was why Healthcare organizations have not adopted AI to a sufficient degree. And so I found it funny. I think it all comes down to sort of perception of what is being adequately trained in AI right. So, you know, I think there are huge possibilities and so it depends on who you’re surveying and what their expectations of use of AI are so that’s the first thing is like I feel like you talk to one person they say hospitals and doctors are using AI already plenty talk to somebody else to say they have an even, you know, scratch the surface of the iceberg here. So so one I think it’s all based on perception, but in general yeah biopharma specifically is always going to be a little bit more cautious industry, right? We’re heavily regulated we have to deal with [11:51] privacy laws oftentimes. We’re not dealing with directly identifiable health information which produces which reduces the value of data and makes it a little bit harder to utilize AI in a compliant fashion. [12:05] So there’s lots of things that can slow people down, but I see a lot of eagerness out there and I think it’s just a matter of large companies, you know are big ships and big shifts are slow to turn. [12:17] And it’s just a matter of getting proper governance setup because a lot of times I see marketing individuals very eager to provide a new project, but they need to have legal approval and people legal aren’t totally certain about what needs to be done yet. So it gets slowed down and so it’s a matter of making sure organizations have [12:38] a compliance pathway because I think people understand there’s risk with these and it’s just a matter of setting up in an organization the proper safeguards to allow people to sort of experiment and try to use these new technologies. [12:53] When people say that they need mlr review sign up on something. Which department are they talking about? Is that part of your department? [13:05] Yeah, and so that’s that’s one of the that’s one of the and I’m sure that changes company to company right? Everybody’s going to have their own unique review processes. So for us, yes, it’s going to be an AI governance process set up specifically for AI. So I think it would be very reasonable for other existing project review Pathways to incorporate AI reviews as well. We’re setting it up as a standalone so that people don’t need to sort of go through it or get trained in it unless they you know, it is relevant to their jobs or they’re looking to use it in some way. [13:38] But yeah, we we would handle the actual day-to-day review and approval of various AI projects and and that’s why you know, we’re seeing [13:53] thousands of potential use cases get discussed by by our organization and it’s just a matter of facilitating the actual approval and onboarding of any resources or third parties necessary to accomplish that [14:06] sure. [14:07] So we’ve seen a lot of progress in R&D and Manufacturing, but marketing seems harder. Where do you see the most progress and infusing AI along the commercial value chain and elsewhere? [14:18] Yeah, so I think you know patient and customer engagement is going to be a really valuable place for AI right? I think digital Therapeutics personalized marketing tailored communication strategies. These are the things that were really going to be seeing maximize potential value, right? [14:39] A lot of times whenever you have an individual interacting with a physician or patient, you need to be careful of any sort of appearances of Kickbacks or any library in corruption risk. [14:57] making sure that you’re [14:59] Staying in line for what is marketing and what is medical education? These are all really important things that will pose risk, but overall I think the value and you know, as people sort of adapt to interacting with ai’s more because it’s still new culturally. So I feel like people may be a little bit weirded out by it at first but I think it’s going to become very regular very fast and it really going to be something that can make people feel comfortable and like they’re speaking to a knowledgeable Source people are going to have to train their own models most likely so, you know, you probably can’t just slap gpp, you know into like a cat bot and have it interact with the patient. It’s going to require you’ll resources people to train it provided about your products so that it can speak intelligently with patients and customers but one that is all set up and ready to go. [15:57] It’s going to really lighten the load for a lot of marketing folks and perform what I would expect to be like First Line Screening and maybe pricing negotiations. [16:07] These are going to be I think really valuable in terms of direct interaction. And then what I was saying before tailored marketing right every company utilizes factors that are collected through sort of digital research and marketing and market research online. But this is limited right because you still working with sort of preformatted and pre-made. [16:30] Descriptions and advertisements right with AI you have the ability to have these created on the Fly you have the ability for really Incorrect and advanced research in terms of what is effective for individuals. I think the actual market research space is going to Boom with analysis of analytical AIS because it is thinking different ways in human’s do right. So something that would never be a parent to you or me could be instantly obvious to an AI and so I think in the market research is actually we’re going to see a lot of interesting Trends a bird. [17:04] And am I correct in assuming or you know kind of reflecting what I’ve heard that? [17:09] In the context of chatbots, certainly, it’s more of the traditional type of AI where it’s just kind of drawing from a discrete body of information and it can’t the AI can’t give any responses that go outside of that discrete, you know body of data. Where is Gen AI kind of introduces the ability to go outside of that and hallucinations and all the rest of it. But his are you one of those potentials that you were talking about? Is that involve like large language models in AI or is it the standard stuff? Yeah, and that comes down to your organization’s right? I think personally we can use large language models here. I think it’s a great youth and you just have to build proper guard rails and sort of Auto disabled Pathways that sort of help it understand when it’s going down the wrong path of discussion. So, you know, the most low-risk item is [18:09] In use of generative AI is using it just for an interpretive or sorry not generative AI but using large language models isn’t the interpretive pathway, right? So having the larger language model just interpret what the person that is interacting with is saying and then selecting from pre-made responses. This is probably the lowest risk pathway that I think most companies would be pretty comfortable with because while there is still some room for manipulation there by a bad actor in general is it can only say 10 things the risk is going to be much more limited on the other end of the spectrum. You could have fully llm powered conversations that while it is still trained on the data so that sort of backing information documents information about your products. [19:02] It has that as sort of its base technology. We’re in addition to whatever base of knowledge that you’re providing. It could then have much more thorough and meaningful conversations, but on the other hands and it’s going to be much more open to that actors sort of using prompt injections or other forms of hampering with it in order to make it say something. You know that [19:25] For provide or engage in some sort of interaction. That’s inappropriate. So comes down to the organization’s risk tolerance. And where on that spectrum they want to fall and but I think you know a lot of Pathways can be safe if you just have the proper guard rails. [19:41] Sure. So earlier on the value you talked about some of the potential tactics and Pharma marketing where we could see these ethical risks implicated by AI like chatbots where the AI is the interface between company and consumer or live AI powered ads where you could have the potential for algorithmic bias there and you know, I know you’re part of your role involves designing the AI governance Frameworks, how could those kinds of things help mitigate the risk and these areas? [20:12] Yeah, so a lot of these things. [20:15] Just need proper Insight in the design process. [20:20] So I know every compliance and legal person. [20:24] has this but [20:25] To get to us early because especially for something like this is very difficult to change once your Bot is fully trained. [20:33] You know. [20:34] I don’t think anybody wants to waste time and money going back and reopening something that’s finalized. So make sure that you interact with your legal and compliance folks early in general. It’s really important to have a assessment process. This is required not directly but more or less by the EU AI Act Right anytime you’re interacting with your European residents or using an AI deployed or available in the EU. [21:04] You’re going to need to have an understanding of the inherent risk displayed by an AI system whether that is something that is a danger to fundamental rights and freedoms or whether it’s on that high risk list that’s provided in the EU AI for example, let me think interacting with HR data is automatically higher and you need to have these things logged in numbers good, right? So it’s a simple really direct compliance requirement. But it all does help you design this and provide consultations Beyond just whatever sort of regulatory requirements and registration. You might need to have the project engagement. So you need to intake probably related to your software development lifecycle in some way, but it could be Standalone as well. However, you want to set it up. [21:55] That intake then will need to do a sort of evaluation of whether this AI is actually an AI at all. Sometimes people get confused. So think something that’s, you know, just following more advanced programming techniques or decision tree as AI. So helping screen out things that don’t need to be there in an automated fashion is really important because then you’re just wasting both the reviewers and the business person’s time. If you’re making them, you know jump through all these hoops for nothing. So making sure that you have proper screening up front and then trained analysts that can be legal folks can be it people compliance. It’s probably best to have a mixer of all of them so you can get a number of viewpoints review projects. [22:41] Check for any red flags or potential security gaps in the plan training and development of this Ai and provide proper input that then can be checked by legal individuals. This is this is something that’s really critical and if you can get these things up and you have the proper technical people in the review pathway both helping on the design stage in terms of what information are we gathering on your project? And how are we building it that mixture of technical expertise or building something properly and legal expertise to make sure that we’re checking all the boxes. We need from a legal point of view is really critical and you can probably do a bit more and go a bit further than you would expect they find people are so almost timid about this a lot of the times they they are more afraid of it than they need to be simply because it’s new and so in that way a compliance organization can be an accelerator. [23:41] Yeah, good point. And so the old you know expression we hear you know, make your mlr college your partners, you know, not your option of Last Resort, you know, this is really really Rings true here and then the marketers I’m sure you play a good key role there along with it and and Technology, you know, and sort of complimenting, you know your expertise there. [24:09] I wanted to spend the last couple of minutes of this interview which had been fascinating and I open her kind of talking about some of the future aspirations for implementing this technology in life sciences. I know you talked about the EU AI act I know there I believe there is a lack of federal regulations here California has a bill in progress to prevent catastrophic consequences of AI which sounds kind of ominous and I know there’s been a big high level disagreement among the AI giants like Elon Musk and meta and so on and so forth about whether that kind of Bill is needed, but do you think that we need, you know federal regulations for a more consistent standard for AI safety? [24:53] Yeah, I think you know do I have a lot of faith that our government will pass, you know, comprehensive AIS probably not. So we’re going to have to rely on the state though, of course having a comprehensive Ai and Privacy Law on a federal level would be really beneficial for businesses actually because it would supersede hopefully and standardized Ai and privacy requirements across the board. Right? So we have New York coming out with law 144, Colorado, Utah, California. We have a lot of individual State privacy laws. Luckily. None of them seems to be Hubert and some and our focused on sort of the most major risks, as you said sort of catastrophic potential diseases of it things that could interfere with National Security. That was a really big one in the in Biden’s executive order on AI because AI can be used to be aware of that just as any other powerful people who can and we don’t want it. [25:53] Attending influence elections or anything else like that through social media. That’s probably where it’s going to be the most dangerous. We’re going to see a lot of laws focus on the social media space and interacting and potentially influence in people. That’s a big Focus as well as the cybersecurity measures protecting your AI and preventing Bad actors from using it or extracting data that otherwise would be you know, the proprietary [26:18] So it is definitely going to be an interesting next couple of years. I think we’re going to see these things pop up like mushrooms all over the country. I imagine many additional AI laws will come out of California as we see new and more advanced uses of AI becomes standard in the public eye. [26:36] And it’s really just the wait and see game mostly though. And because it’s going to be a little bit random and you know different states are going to have their own interpretations of what space and what’s appropriate. It’s really just in your best interest right now to behave as ethically as you can and do the best you can to prepare and document your use of AI in a standardized. [27:00] Structured data format so that you can pull something. For example, if California comes out with an AI law specific to hiring and firing or resume scanning you should be able to extract that information and see what’s closet. You’re running that involves AI in resume scanning that’s going to be really important because I think while these General ethical principles are entertainment, I think particular use cases we’re going to be focuses of state laws, wherever there’s you know, [27:28] Some publicized problem in the news or something like that that’s going to be the thing that the state law then covers. So you’re going to need structured databases about your company’s activities. So as soon as that laptops up, you can go back and review and make any updates your processes as needed. [27:46] Sure, great. Well, we certainly acknowledge you for taking the lead and helping Pharma Wade responsibly into AI. Thanks so much for your time. I really appreciate it. Yeah, thank you. Absolutely. And you’ll be continuing this discussion on stage. Of course at AI deciphered with fellow panelists Michael Colbert who is in healthcare attorney at the NYC Law Firm manette Phelps and my colleague lesbian Shack and Eminem senior reporter will be moderating. So should be a good one. And as I promised here’s that code it’s a I 100 just enter AI 100 on your registration page to receive $100 off of the registration cost. Thanks again to Nevada and we look forward to seeing you on Thursday. Yeah looking forward to it. Okay, Jack Welcome to our Trends segments. I’ll hand this one over to you. Yeah, it’s great to be here. This is gonna be my last episode for a couple of weeks. So I’m glad we’re kind of going out with a bang with two really relevant. [28:46] Topics for our audience the first being new Making a Splash in terms of the glp one space they had an ad this week in the Wall Street Journal calling out the prices of glp-1 drugs as they start to make inroads in there talking about the recent comments from Lily regarding compounded glp-1 medications and basically making their case for why these weight loss Solutions should be more affordable. They also recently pointed Rachel Mahoney as their Chief brand officer. So this is kind of part of a larger Push by Noom going into the space Mark. I wanted to bring you in first. And then unless I love to get your thoughts. We were talking offline before we started recording but you know, we’ve seen row is very active in the space Weight Watchers has pivoted basically their entire business operations to being more consumer-facing about glp. Once this latest Thing by Noom, which is remarkably popular and has a pretty sizeable footprint when it comes to digital and social media marketing seems like the latest foray into the space, but what do you make of all of this on the consumer side of things? [29:46] Thanks. I mean, you know Noom of course is a company that uses behavioral psychology principles. [29:54] To help people lose weight, you know in case, you know, people are not familiar with them some have dubbed the company the Weight Watchers from Millennials. Anyway, you know, this company had already been offering branded glp ones through its platform, but it wanted to give patients a cheaper alternative and it’s now going to be offering this compounded glp-1 drug as part of this new weight loss product that starts at 149 dollars and the treatment will feature compounded some eggs with tide which of course is the active ingredients in Novo. Nordisk will go in ozempic and you know, they’re not the first Behavioral Health weight loss company to change their approach and start offering a medical solution. As you mentioned row has been doing this for a while Himes and hers and sesame have launched similar programs in recent months. And of course Weight Watchers, you know, the 800-pound gorilla in the weight loss area, which is you know for a decades used more of a behavioral psychology psychological. [30:55] Started making zip balance the weight loss brand name of Trace epitome known as diabetes drug mujaro available to members and that of course came after Oprah said during her recent TV special that she had parted ways with Weight Watchers her long-time sponsor after revealing. She was using unspecified weight loss drugs. So, you know pairing a behavior change program with a more biological component is becoming a safe to say more more popular more accepted. I think it’s a reflection, you know of what everybody’s saying is that you know, the the stigma around obesity treatment is starting to come down at least as being addressed here. You know, I think there’s still you know articles that people now are ashamed to be admitting that they’re taking those epic and Drugs in this class, you know to lose weight celebrities that is but you know, so there’s still work to be done but from a consumer standpoint, you know, we really reached [31:55] a cultural turning point in terms of treatment and it’s become more acceptable and I think the FED all these digital Health companies are adopting it is a reflection of that greater cultural acceptance. [32:08] Unless I want to bring you into the conversation because I think Mark provides some really interesting context around the glp one Fascination that is still ongoing. But I want to get your thoughts too on Noom coming in there and saying hey we want to be an active player in this but they also do you know to an extent call out Lily in this ad and they talk about the cost of these drugs. I know it’s been a huge issue. You’ve been following me on the policy front the White House Bernie Sanders and the like been saying hey, it’s great that these drugs are out there and they they have these clinical results, but the price and the access issue is still something to focus on I’m curious what you make of this latest attempt by Noom to kind of affect the conversation. Yeah, the the move definitely underscores as you mentioned several issues. There’s drug pricing debate that’s been going on for years, you know what Mark mentioned about, you know, the reduction of stigma around getting weight loss treatment and the increasing demand and of course the ongoing drug shortages that we’ve been seeing happening for the last couple of years that have been affecting. [33:08] GOP one drugs and this move by noon. I believe the sea. Oh Jeff Cook told CNBC recently that news position is that more Supply is at a reasonable price is needed right now not less. [33:23] So ozempic and Recovery costs about 1000 dollars per month without insurance Noom will be offering compounded versions or compounded magnetic for 149 dollars for the first month that people use the program and then 279 for the following month. So that’s a pretty significant decrease in price and they’re kind of emphasizing that saying that there needs to be more access to compounded versions of GOP one drugs so that people can afford it. You know, I believe the statistic is like 40% of the US population has obesity but it’s really hard for the majority of Americans to get access to brand name GOP ones because their insurance might not cover it for weight loss reasons and because of the high prices obviously, so it’s a bold move by Noom to kind of say, hey we’re going to be offering cheaper version. We’re trying to help alleviate the drug shortage issue the demand [34:23] Issue new also called on policy makers and Regulators to make sure that they kind of allow access to compounding until the brand name medications in the US match the same price that they do in London and Sydney which are going to be significantly lower than in the US and the CEO noted. The bottom line is these medications should be 200 to 300 dollars a month not 1300 dollars a month. So I think that’s really the main the main takeaway that new has put out into the world. Yeah. It’s kind of poking the bear to a certain extent where it’s saying like, oh, yeah, like the and we’ve seen these drugs recently come out of shortage and and we’ve seen efforts by Lily and no vote to double down on their manufacturing capacities but to your point unless making you know, they’re not mincing words on the topic where they say you have this price point in this is what the price point should be and until you get to that price point. We’re going to continue offer at a lower amount. [35:19] And Eli Lilly, you know, I think is aware of that. They did recently announced as we discussed earlier that they would be offering single dose vials of Zep Bound for a significant reduction in price through their Lily directs platform. So I think that’s you know, Lily’s effort to kind of make sure that they [35:41] Keep the demand strong for their products without people going and seeking compounded versions. So they’re trying to you know, start thinking about lowering costs as well. But we’ll see what happens further with that. Yeah, and just kind of following up those points Leisure on the pricing area because we know while Novo and Lily are the market leaders now, they’ve got like 70% of the weight loss drug Market the locked up we know that in coming years numerous other biopharma companies are knocking on the door here like Roche mg in Pfizer and AstraZeneca, you know, they’re currently developing drugs of their own for obesity. I just saw a report at a Morning Star at 16 new drugs are expected by 2029 which could add an additional 70 billion dollars into the glp market by 2031 and those new entrants should start to bring prices down as well as insurance companies start covering these negotiation. [36:41] Process that will you know shave probably 20 30% off the price at least and so bringing it closer, you know to that ideal price point that will get more people on board. Yeah, and I’ll just add a final thought here before we transition to the second topic that we’re going to talk about. I do think it’s very interesting you talk about that Mark where we’re going to see a lot more entrance into the space both from established drug makers and some up-and-comers as well. But Lily and Nova will ultimately still have that first mover Advantage. It’s just a matter of now how much they really matters in the space that’s going to have so much growth over the next decade and there is so much demand not only for the products but also for better access and a lower price point as per what less is talking about too. So whether the industry makes that move on its own or we start to see, you know, Federal regulators and insurance companies making that change Still Remains to be seen But as always they’ll be interesting to watch what happens in the glp one space just as it’s been interesting to watch what has happened over the past. [37:41] Three to four years in the HIV awareness space. I the pleasure of talking with Mark Meacham from veeve Healthcare about and activation that veeve had down in New Orleans for the United States conference on HIV and AIDS and they really went with this push from a marketing perspective on highlighting the regional aspects of the South and it was called sounds of the South celebrating the music stories and resilient voices that shape the Region’s future in the fighting against HIV and AIDS awareness and it was an immersive experience. I think that we’re starting to see a lot more of those at least from the marketers that I speak with. Those have been the most effective ones that they bring to medical conferences and to congresses and a different industry gatherings. [38:25] Veeve was serving its major sponsor. Obviously, they’re very active in the HIV awareness space. They were supporting the Next Generation Scholars Program. They were hosting a plenary session that was songs of the South featuring notable young black artists in the South interspersed with stories from the grantee organizations working in the HIV space. And I don’t know it was just one of those things as we were having the conversation. It’s just so good that we’ve seen these top of Mind Healthcare issues that obviously come to the fourth you think of Kobe you think of the Obesity crisis you think of the opioid epidemic and they’re still the HIV crisis as well, you know, Mark was saying in our conversation that we’re still not on track to hit the HIV eradication numbers at the federal government set out for the end of the decade as it relates to Black and Hispanic populations. So there’s all this talk of hey, we have these new treatment options. We’ve made you know, prep something that patients are looking for in hcps are having those conversations, but they’re still more to do and I think it’s always encouraging at least when I have these conversations and you see these [39:25] Events to see that V is out there saying no we have to be able to talk about this and de-stigmatize in a lot of these communities that where it is still an issue to talk about HIV and AIDS awareness. So I’m curious if either of you had any thoughts it’s it’s encouraging to me to see that we’re still making a lot of investment effort in that space. I think the thing that stood out to me about reading about Viv Health Care’s efforts in this space is that you know, as in the last several years, especially as D and I conversations have really been top of mind for healthcare marketers. I feel that this kind of efforts are kind of a good example of healthcare marketers getting really granular and trying to Target specific populations that might be dealing with health disparities. I mean, obviously there’s High rates of HIV and AIDS among black people specific to the South as well. There’s the geographic component. There’s all the different states in the South the different cultures and the South and just kind of briefly viewing what [40:25] Of has been kind of putting out in the space. Like they have different initiatives. They have immersive theater programs to reach specific communities. They have a podcast that features Original Stories from the gay and queer latinx and afro latinx Community, you know, they have resources specific to women and HIV prevention and I really think it’s kind of a good example of healthcare marketers really digging deeper into understanding the nuances of different marginalized populations and [41:01] You know incentive sending out a blanket message to one population really kind of like finding out how to connect with them in the right way. So I think that’s kind of a hopeful thing to see. [41:15] And just before we throw over to you Mark. I want to piggyback on what Lesha brought up there because when I spoke with Mark, he talked exactly what you were discussing their Lush about you can do all of the research you can find all this data, but if you can’t communicate it to your target patient population or Community, it’s not going to have that such a that effect and he talked about the fact that they did all this ethnographic research focusing on where people are living in the South and which patient populations be they gay latinx African-American you name it and seeing all that sort of stuff. He’s like, but then I can’t just put a white paper out there and expect people to consume it. So we have to do in a different way in the quote. He had here was culture has been the Cornerstone of our community work from the start of time. I think it’s I think it was centered on the kind of insights that we found we didn’t have to graphic research to find insights, but then we use culture to share these insights. And so I think that’s where you start to do these immersive experiences these musical performances these storytelling platforms. That’s how you take the data and actually make it actionable in a meaningful way. Yeah, definitely. [42:15] That’s really interesting that they did a bunch of. [42:17] Ethnographic research and we’re able to find a translated so well into these cultural experiences. Yeah, great great conversation everybody and I’m very also very heartened to see this kind of really serious. You know, I don’t know if it’s called a multi-channel omni-channel approach to ameliorating these discrepancies. I also love really how Viv is coming at it here, you know with this, you know, whether it’s women in this community or lgbtq in this community different communities of color anybody really who’s in the US who suffering but those who are just proportionately affected and you know, using sophisticated marketing techniques to personalize really reach them and engage them and you know, we could be talking about not to get to predictive we could be talking about potential, you know candidate for, you know, best Multicultural campaign of the Year here when we look at all these Collective efforts, but you know, [43:17] Going on on Mark’s comments here, you know in terms of you know, reaching, you know, looking back in history and seeing where we are from a historical perspective. You know, AZT was the drug back in 1987 that kind of really started Kickstarter that National discourse on the high price of drugs and started that arms race on drugs and spurred that’s the new kind of activism, you know, this called later vigilante consumerism and you know, so we’re 30 years almost out from that Revolution and you know, we’re hopefully starting to really take a hard look at where we are with the treatment goals and hopefully we’ll get there but you know, it’s through these efforts of focusing on the targets focusing on the geographic markets that matter and making sure that the message is delivered by those people through whom it’s going to resonate the most that we’re going to really move the needle here. So again, [44:17] Echoing what you both said really really nice to see this effort here Jack. This was your last podcast with the next couple weeks. You were getting hitched of course and I think I speak for everybody when I say we wish you only the best you were bribed to be is a very lucky lucky girl indeed and we will see you back here in a couple weeks. Thank you. I’m looking forward to it. I I know that there’s gonna be plenty of medical marketing news. They happened between when this podcast goes up and when I’m on the next episode, but I know that we’re in more than capable hands with YouTube and and our new editor and chief Jameson Fleming. So I look forward to reading all about it when I come back. I can’t promise you that I might be doing a whole lot of reading during the wedding or during the honeymoon, but certainly when I get back I’ll get caught up to speed. I know it’s hard, but try to unplug from the medical marketing news flow. And yeah, well, we’ll cover the water from while you’re gone. I appreciate that. Okay everybody. Thanks so much for joining us for this week’s episode. Be sure to tune in next week when our guest will Becky Edwards of Oregon on [45:17] We’ll be discussing how the Paris game is. Where a boost for Women’s Health. [45:22] That’s it for this week. The mmm podcast is produced by Bill Fitzpatrick Gordon. Our theme music is by himself rate review at follow every episode wherever you listen to podcasts new episodes out every week and be sure to check out our website and then play online.com for the top news stories at Farmer marketing.