Kinesso and PulsePoint, two leaders in healthcare marketing, talk to the audience about four key changes currently taking place in the industry: Addressability, Channel Proliferation, Real-time Measurement and Sequential Messaging. They’ll help the audience understand the drivers and implications of these changes, and will discuss what their organizations are doing to address these changes and continue to deliver value for pharma brands. 

Note: The MM+M Podcast uses speech-recognition software to generate transcripts, which may contain errors. Please use the transcript as a tool but check the corresponding audio before quoting the podcast.

It is working closely with our clients and Partners and we expect them to push us because when they push us. They bring us things that we perhaps weren’t thinking about and we have the ability to then innovate from that point. It’s extremely important to keep on challenging all of our Partners and the data inventory and DSP space to understand what their roadmaps for the kokios future look like

Hi, this is Marc Iskowitz editor at large for MM+M and I’m excited to be part of this sponsored podcast with pulse point for developments changing Pharma marketing straight talk from leaders and tech and media postpoint is a marketing activation and Intelligence company and as the title suggests we’re going to spotlight some trends and give a point of view on where the new opportunities are for Pharma marketers. Am I guess today are Andrew Stark who’s chief revenue officer at PulsePoint and Francis D’Hondt who’s SVP for addressable health at Kinneso which is a tech driven performance agency.

Andrew, Francis hello and welcome to the MM+M Podcast thanks for having us absolutely we’ll just dive right in here for the Pharma industry overall which of course as you both knows an industry. That’s generally pretty stable. It feels like we’re seeing many different moving pieces and more disruptions and Innovations specifically in the ad market perhaps the normal and I kind of wanted to get your you know perspective. Do you think that’s a fair observation and why do you think that is I definitely think that’s a really fair observation so I’ve been in the pharmace space on the addressable side for at this point. I would say seven to eight years would say that the Pharma vertical at large has historically been a little bit more resistant to change especially in those early years and we’ve seen a big influx of adoption of emerging channels like connected TV like digital out of home like audio a bunch of channels that are entering the space. I think the reason behind that has been that there’s been a lot of improvements in the tech and and what we’re able to tap into so whether you’re talking about it from.

Targeting perspective and integration perspective being able to work with all those channels programmatic perspective instead of those historically managed service buys and most importantly measurement, so I’ve always said that if we’re able to prove the efficacy of any of these Innovations that we’re doing for any one of our clients by proving out. How it leads to the end business results that our clients care about that’s that’s the easy selling point to kind of you know keep on keep on going down that innovative route and because of all those improvements that we’ve seen in each of those spaces being able to tie back something like a digital out of home campaign to true script lift metrics. We’ve seen a lot of our clients. Have a much deeper embrace of those newer strategies in the market sure I will talk more about you know the ability to tie back to the things that matter to industry like script lift and things like that in a second just want to make a little observation. We just kind of according to our reporting digital out of home add market is growing by

Percent annually according to a group M mid-year study at 13 billion dollars worldwide the market represents 30-seven percent of all out of home the study estimated and at this year’s CES show what especially Jewish attention from the health media literati as we put it where the many digital out of home ad opportunities from in car market to retail and you know we all have heard as you pointed out Francis you know what’s happening with audio whether it’s streaming on demand broadcast. It’s a really a resurgent area of advertising attention Pharma already has a big position and radio so this seems like an area. They make it into and in retail we know with what’s happening with instacart that kind of grabbed the show with their kind of real time in card purchase advertising which kind of has some health implications potentially but also you know some downsides so but Andrea wanted to go to you next and talk about picking up where Francis left off in terms of you know some of the developments. Did you want to build on and discussion today?

Yeah, I mean absolutely I think what Francis is reflecting.

Uh when we first entered the market five or six years ago. There was more reluctance but in other verticals. There was a lot of innovation, and I think Pharma wants to stay innovative. So what you’re seeing to francis’s point as the technology has proven that it will work well. We’re actually seeing is a lot of our clients actually pushing our innovation. So when we first came in you know we were presenting innovative ideas to and technologies to our clients and we there was a lot of education there once some of the first adopters are using that and results were seen and significantly better results in what they were trying to do because of the interoperability measurement ability to coordinate across multiple channels. You’ve seen a lot of or most of the industry lean in and now they’re coming back and saying hey this technology is great. What else can it do and that’s pushing us to continue innovation and I think.

That will continue and accelerate.

Sure the advertisers are in a way kind of pushing the technologists to kind of figure out as you said, how can we get more involved here? You know and so again. It’s it’s surfacing more opportunities for Pharma marketers perhaps and we’ve seen in the past. Can you talk a little bit about you know addressability and you know another big development in the space which we’ve heard is of course. What’s happening with Google retiring it’s cookies which is created challenges. You know around reaching audiences at scale. Yeah. I cannot I can start with that. I you know I think the the whole cookie list future the idea of that has been something that we’ve all been thinking about in the space for the last several years. It’s it’s something that has kind of been start stop in terms of when cookies are actually going to be sunset so the the real positive of that is that we’ve been preparing for this for a while right like we we have assumed that the cookies have been going away a lot quicker than its actually happening. There’s been.

Out of products that have been entering the market to help with clicklist targeting in the meantime. I think what the most important thing to keep in mind for preparing for that future and one of the real value props that we bring from the canesso side as a as a data and tech agnostic agency is testing is extremely important and it’s consistent testing and understanding what results you’re trying to get there’s a bunch of different options out there but again trying to make sure that we have an understanding of what does that scale drop-off going to be from moving from a cookie-based targeting approach to eventually a cookieless-based one what performance drop-offs. Can we expect if any one of the differences in match going to look like and you know in conjunction with that? It’s extremely important to keep on challenging all of our Partners and the data inventory and DSP space to understand. What their roadmaps for the coquillos future look like and I’d say the last thing is just understanding that there isn’t a perfect solution out there yet. Where no matter how prepared we are as soon as all of the cookies dep.

There is going to be some sort of drop-off and adjustment that the market has to make so it requires a little bit of patience and again understanding that this is going to be a work in progress. No matter how prepared we are or help with everything. I think we are sure and and obviously that points up the need is you put it for first party Data Solutions and contextual Solutions and you know our own survey work has shown that farm industry is just kind of getting to grips with the need to build custom audiences, but what is the just to put a finer point on it? You know before we move off of this point? What is the impact on addressability? Well, I think in fact what this move will lead to is more accuracy and from our perspective if you look at our company pulse point which is part of Internet brands or WebMD and medscape. We have access to a lot of first Party data this really puts, sort of more power back in the hands of the publisher and more importantly the consumer and so

I think what you’re going to see is. Yes, There’s Gonna Be drop-off, but I think we will solve this problem over time as an industry, but ultimately what that will lead to is person-based targeting which will be much more accurate versus you know sort of just like a cookie identity. That’s out there and it’s more anonymous. This is going to be linked more directly to an individual’s identity. Obviously we have to maintain strong privacy controls as an industry, but I think it cleans things up and and makes our technologies over time much more accurate and and therefore they to better performance. You are switching gears now from addressability over to channels available to reach audiences. You know over a decade ago. We went from this predominantly TV print radio world to adding in the digital search social component kind of more of that sort of approach and it feels like perhaps the industry is Finding itself at another crossro.

In terms of channels available with things like podcasts CTV digital out of home as we spoke about being able to advertise on the ehr and many more becoming available. Do you gentleman see this as a challenge or an opportunity? And how are you helping clients address this diversification. I definitely see it as both in terms of a challenge and opportunity. I’m I personally am a lot more. I would say in personally very encouraged by the opportunities like come with it the challenge kind of comes goes back to what I spoke about at the beginning in terms of really making sure that we’re embracing the innovation really making sure that we have actual results to tie back to to prove that these channels are driving the same sorts of results that you know clients have context from display and other more traditional channels, but the opportunity goes to what Andrew was just saying as well in terms of we are going to be able to understand what patients and Physicians are looking at from a full Media Funnel full.

For funnel Media approach whether that’s you know broader awareness channels that historically have not been used as much understanding how on a patient journey, they might be hitting different screens from out of home to an audio ad to seeing display ads that the retargeted off of understanding what all of their actions look like on site that they eventually get over to so to me that’s really exciting with painting that Fuller picture as someone with a very you know with a very extensive programmatic background it also ties to the benefits that we’re able to bring with frequency Management with fluid optimization controls within one platform where if you have more of these channels available within that one buying method it’s able to understand how you’re able to look at that audience holistically instead of just fragmented silos and you know kind of limiting media and Efficiency and waste along the way great and we didn’t mention it earlier. Maybe it did Francis but in terms of when you move to this full Funnel approach.

Which is built on more of this first Party data approach that we spoke about earlier. It’s also privacy more privacy safe right. Yes definitely okay, let’s move over to you know the third topic then which is measurement. I was measurement changing and why should form a Brand’s take notice of that so the the biggest change that I’ve seen on the measurement space is how how quickly we’re able to see real measurement, how quickly we’re able to act on it what I first started in the space and I was running campaigns. I would essentially have to have a proxy KPI that we were tracking right like just trying to guess whether CTR would lead to higher script lift or something like a page view rate. We would wait six to eight weeks to see you know across the for report it would either tell us that our hypothesis about what the correlation that we were that we came up with was true. Maybe it was partially true. Maybe it was way off but by the time you’re reacting to those to those measurement results.

Two months I passed and you’re basically reacting a lot more with a lot more delay than what you then what you optimally should be doing we’re we’re seeing a lot of Partners and you know pulse point is definitely one of the ones up the forefront of that where we’re now able to optimize in platform. Make more granular and rapid decisions based off of how patients and Physicians are reacting to our Media not quite in real time because there’s always going to be a little bit of a lag for those for those later metrics but about as close as you can get so I think measurement is changing because we’re able again to to react more intelligently and react more rapidly and drive those results for clients and have a tie up into stronger overall performance sure and Andrew I’m sure you have a view point on on this as well because given that you run a marketing activation and Intelligence company. Are you seeing clients kind of demand more of that real-time measurements and oh, there was a big movement in point of care immediate.

Word auditing and accountability several years ago which we all live through but can kind of bring us up to speed there. This is all connected and when you think about omni channel the reason omni channel is becoming more and more important and a buzzword everywhere we go is because as Frances said the technology is getting better. So step one is oh our technology and other technologies can help me reach a doctor for example wherever they are at work at home all coordinated on whatever Channel that they are on you know that could be social that could be search that can be through an email measurement is the heat of this though, because where that.

Patient is or that physician has different value to the marketer depending on what they’re trying to achieve and measurement ties That altogether and so if you think about things in this way, there’s data you have the data you use that data to not only understand who your audiences but but use it to build a way to reach that audience and then you have supply omni channel that everywhere and then you have a technology that ties That altogether the last step is measuring that what Francis wants to know is if I’m spending money one place versus another what has helped me better connect with that patient or that physician and has that letter result and the technology that we’re Building and others all is in that measurement piece and it is a near real time as Franca says which allows him. Not to wait eight weeks to see results, but optimized towards one of the channels or tactics.

Or audiences that best suit what he is trying to achieve and it really is if you think about those two things omni and measurement together you know with the with access to the right amount of channels. That is really the big.

Innovation that’s happening within the space right now that everyone is so excited about is it like third party companies that are helping make that linkage. You know like a cuvia or viva. It’s really about interoperability of data and supply and and so to do this properly everything needs to be connected and you have to have access to the data and the supply in the case of closed ecosystem like pulse points we have all of that first Party data. We can leverage it to reach supply within our own ecosystem meaning medscape or WebMD for example, but we can also use that data and those learnings to reach people anywhere on the internet or on social or based you know in email on those sort of things so when we think about omni channel it is truly omni channel. It’s not just a couple of Media channels. It’s if we’re following this patient a doctor around either through their.

Journey or a doctor during their day we want to be able to unbiasly deliver the ability to reach that person wherever they are and in the right moment so to speak a Francis is looking to reach a doctor while they’re relaxing for whatever reason I can offer that to him if you wants to reach that doctor on an ehr father at work. I can offer that tune but more importantly I need to show him the value of those two things in a measurement solution, so that he can react to it accordingly okay great our last topic is around building longitudinal Journeys for our audiences in other words so delivering sequential messaging to eventually drive to a desired behavior or outcome whether that’s you know switching prescribing behavior script lift. That’s sort of thing I would imagine is this actually possible now. I think you both have been kind of alluding to that, but what are your companies doing perhaps to to build these capabilities and help.

My brands or maybe health and wellness brands to achieve impact in those areas I think on the on the knesso side Andrew was talking about a lot of this just now where we’re the more that we’re able to understand the the differences and value between individuals within our audiences or different you know our individuals at different types at different times of their of their journey the more we’re able to drive increased personalization and drive overall efficiencies right, so we’re running some sequential metron campaigns right now for a few clients across both the consumer and the hcp space and we’ve seen we’ve seen massive increases in Roi that we’re able to drive again limiting a lot of media and efficiencies. Just understanding how to differently value someone who has maybe gone to the site and performed specific action or been served in add four times and not reacted to it those two individuals should be treated differently they’re still valuable in different ways, but not you know they’re not going to drive the same end performance so

A lot of what we’re doing is focused on pulling in triggers from on-site behavior and using that to create more personalized creative journeys, so you know I think Andrew was saying this earlier as well it all ties back to all of the topics. I’ve been discussing about today where it’s it’s the measurement. It’s the ability to reach everybody across all of these channels and then turn that into a personalized journey. That is going to that is going to give us the best performance that we can okay, so you know for an industry that has historically been really slow to develop as we started talking about at this at the top of the show it feels like as you put it we’re running on steroids. What can brands do to keep up you know to stay informed. You know everybody wants to know that their campaigns are incorporating the latest Innovations and to like how do you advise your clients and how to make investments in the right places sure so I would say from the from the canasso side. What we what we need to make sure that we’re doing is staying.

Organized and staying diligent with the way that we that are partners. They’re the you know the the programmatic space specifically is extremely dynamic. There’s always new partners new Solutions new ways of looking at things that are popping up in the market and we need to understand. What’s out there and make sure that we’re constantly reaching out to these partners asking for the product roadmaps helping shape those products for the maps as Andrew was kind of talking about earlier as well to either create solutions for the problems that we’re seeing the market or understanding what solutions are being created the other thing that I would say is we we really challenge all of our clients to have an open minded sort of test and learn budget whether that’s you know whatever that number or percentage of medium might be differs depending on what you’re trying to accomplish, but there needs to be there needs to be a collaborative embrace of understanding that there are disruptive Solutions entering the market. We need to test.

Many of these partners as we can to understand, what is and what isn’t working I talked about that a bit from a cookie list approach, but I think that applies to everything in the space whether it’s a new platform. That’s entering the market. You know AI being a big buzzword that everyone’s talking about right now different Solutions around that so yeah, just having test and learned an open mind and being able to tackle that great Angie went away in on that as well partnering. Yeah, I mean for us our partnership is about technology platform that we are constantly building so to francis’s point it is working closely with our clients and Partners and we expect them to push us because when they push us. They bring us things that we perhaps weren’t thinking about and we have the ability to then innovate from that point. I personally try to attend a lot of conferences as well. You know read mm and M sorry for the plug here, but you know.

Also learning from each other you know the there are two francis’ point so many new ideas, and it is it is really smart to deeply understand what those opportunities are learn about them and then try them out and then of course back to measurement make sure you have a baseline for what you think successes because if you try something new you know you have to answer it to some kind of performance metric to compare it but as I move around I’m constantly challenged to make sure that I’m understanding what’s new and going on and so my my own behavior something that I recommend for everyone else which is read as much and I see Francis mentioned AI there’s so much going on there. It’s really difficult to stay on top of it and you know because it’s now just become a marketing buzzword seems like AI is being used in every possible way to enhance things the question is how much of that is actually leading to specific performances enhance.

Ments for what we’re all trying to do as an industry, so I’m focused on and looking at that as we move into that space great. Would you gentleman be open to spending the last two minutes of the podcast doing a rapid fire kind of segment where I ask you about a marketing catalyst and you answer my phrasing your response and boomer bust terms.

Sure sure okay, so here’s the first one Pharma Media in housing. We’ve seen a couple farmer companies completely in-house their health media and media buying and planning capability boomer bust I am obviously very biased for this but I would say I would say bust but you know like I was saying in the beginning with the amount of partners that sort of venture the space. There’s and sorry this is to not dropped fire. I think I think what the amount of partners that enter the space. It’s important to have that level of agnosticism and ability to kind of pivot to different Solutions within whatever those spaces entail there are obviously been a lot of strong use cases for in housing like some companies have done it very well, but I think it limits the flexibility in versatility that might come with being able to work with more obnostic partner Mark I would say if you’re going to do it you do need to replace that part of what Francis is talking about because most of the agencies.

Are very dedicated to staying on top of every single new innovation all the partners out there because they have to so if you’re going to in-house it that needs to be part of your strategy sure absolutely 2024 Pharma marketing spend you know do you think it’s going to be up down in the middle and you know again boomer bust I would say from from what we have visibility to it’s a slight boom and I think a part of that is again been the the embracement of the newer channels because we’re seeing a boom specifically I would say for the connected TV space kind of shifting out of traditional linear into that channel, so not necessarily in terms of the overall spend but for the amount of spend that’s going digitally I’m going to dressably I would say a small boot sure I concur I think that for the addressability engines technology boom overall not sure okay okay fair enough.

Great well so many new ideas and as you as you both pointed out learning about new marketing opportunities is more important than ever but it’s also become very difficult perhaps because there’s so much going on and those things that we thought were impossible like with you know the introduction of generative AI have suddenly become possible and you know for those commercializing Pharma brands. It’s really been it’s really very important to keep up the speed so great to get your points of View on these things to that end if anybody out there who has any questions. You know it can feel free to contact Andrew or Francis through mmm. I hope we can have another conversation as you know these technologies. You know become more well-used within the pharmacepace. Thank you absolutely that was Andrew and Francis I was a terrific conversation many thanks for listening come back soon for another one. This is marcusquets for the mmm. Podcast take care everybody.