Design moves people, and the bottom line follows. In this episode, discover the transformative power of design for healthcare brands and how it can set them apart. With case studies, real-world evidence and everyday strategies, Joe Temple and Matt Noe of Minds + Assembly share what it means to get undeniable results by design.

Note: The MM+M Podcast uses speech-recognition software to generate transcripts, which may contain errors. Please use the transcript as a tool but check the corresponding audio before quoting the podcast.

[00:01] Technologies that means to an end but if it’s not constructed and starting from a place of empathy and understanding usually Falls pretty flat there’s no shortcuts to craft a craft comes from something that’s passed down something to it laboured over and I think even if you spent 10 years honing your craft. So you can do it in 10 minutes great. [00:20] But you have to earn that. [00:24] Hello and welcome. I’m Marc Iskowitz the editor at large for MM+M. [00:30] And I’m pleased to be joined by two executives from Minds + Assembly. [00:33] Joe Temple who is executive creator director design [00:36] and Matthew Noe who’s EVP director of omnichannel strategy, we’re here to discuss impacting health care audiences by Design [00:48] Joe Matthew welcome to the MM+M Podcast [00:52] Hello. [00:52] Thanks for having us. Thank you absolutely just to take a step back for a moment. You know mine is an assembly obviously has been a proud member of the Agency 100 for some time. [01:01] You gave a talk at last month’s transformed Healthcare conference. [01:05] About the Omni channel approach. [01:08] From the perspective of visual design and through a strategic lens. [01:11] And so we’ve got both of you here to today to kind of build on that. Obviously you know in our own Healthcare marketing trend survey. [01:19] Which is a survey we feel did late last year early this year. [01:23] 150 director level or above Farm execs [01:26] what we saw there and that study. [01:27] Was that farmer marketing budgets were up? [01:30] by double digits percent wise [01:32] and a lot of channels, obviously were up as part of that. [01:37] And that kind of spoke to the fact that Omi channel kind of as a as at the center of things right now and it’s kind of the way. [01:43] That a lot of Pharma marketers are thinking so this is a topic. That’s really top of mind right now. [01:48] Matt I kind of wanted to start off with you here. [01:50] What evidence is there to support the impact? [01:53] of design [01:54] thinking on the bottom line. [01:55] Yeah, I you know this is a fun question for me. You know first off. Let’s be clear. We’re not talking solely about visual design right. We’re thinking about areas of design like. [02:06] behavioral Design Experience design [02:09] Or otherwise, I would have no place on This podcast today. [02:13] because I’m not a designer right so [02:15] highly effective design we believe in see that it makes an impact because it helps. [02:20] User experience it boosts patient satisfaction. [02:23] least it leads to increased adherence alright all of these things are objective of all of our clients and [02:29] what we’re all trying to design programs and experiences to be. [02:33] And so there’s a couple of studies that we. [02:36] typically look at if this is ever kind of in question but [02:39] You know broadly. [02:41] But that’s definition to design in mind. [02:44] It has an impact on the bottom line and it’s well documented in life sciences and outside of life sciences. There’s a [02:50] study that was done by the design management institute. [02:53] chose design driven companies outperformed S&P by 219% [02:58] McKenzie did another study in Healthcare [03:01] the good design can lead to a 30 plus percent increase in revenue. [03:06] And a 56% increase in total returns to shareholders right so the value of design is. [03:12] unquestionable [03:13] and I think especially with that broader definition. We think about customer experience and behavioral design. [03:19] That’s so applicable to our industry. [03:21] It’s pretty. [03:22] Pretty well documented yeah, and there was a McKinsey study as well. [03:25] That show that Pharma companies that taken on each channel marketing approach also. [03:29] typically have better Revenue [03:32] Joe you want to build on this idea of taking a broader. [03:36] approach or broader definition of design and incorporating that into former marketing [03:40] Yeah, absolutely. [03:41] I’m glad that. [03:43] You know some other more qualified. [03:45] statutes of [03:46] given some steps that kind of [03:48] reinforce you know how we can measure that because I think when it comes to visual designs specifically. [03:54] It can be more challenging. [03:56] It can be a little bit more subjective and I think what’s really good is the way. [04:00] We’re talking about design as a broader term and I think that. [04:03] To me design is something that has intention behind it. It’s intentionally created. [04:08] And I think as far as visual design. [04:11] It’s a hard one to measure but one thing that. [04:13] Has always really interested me Chris who leads out? [04:17] Brand strategy team is got really good. [04:20] examples of things and I sort of [04:22] Geek out on that with him a little bit and one thing that he kind of [04:25] reminded me of recently is this study with Les Burnett and Peter field. [04:29] which is kind of [04:30] heavily used in the consumer world, but it’s it’s the idea of the long and short of it. [04:34] and I think that construct is really interesting because [04:37] it talks about. [04:39] short term advertising a long-term advertising and I think that’s an area that starts to get really interesting and the idea is that [04:46] Long advertising is really about building a brand. [04:48] You know it’s making it mentally available. It’s creating entry- points and it’s that longer-term relationship. [04:54] And then the short advertising is really about activating sales. You know it’s highly targeted leverages that kind of brand equity that you’ve built. [05:02] And I love that kind of comparison, because I feel like. [05:06] as a brain Guy [05:07] I love the idea of building for the long term and I think we’re seeing that. [05:11] in a lot of these sort of stats that [05:13] there is value in that and it takes a lot of commitment in the long run. [05:18] yeah, kind of see a little bit of a parallel there between DTC [05:21] which is kind of like you know as you said making a brand mentally available. [05:25] I like that or making a disease mentally available. [05:28] Priming the market and then dtp you know once you kind of have a little bit of brand equity you leverage that and you’ve got to go more for for more intentional perhaps. [05:38] I’m not sure that’s the right word but approached what you know the kind of the population you’re going after. [05:43] very interesting [05:45] Now let’s kind of take a step deeper and ask what what ways can design create. [05:51] That emotional connection to drive behaviour change Joe you want to. [05:55] Take that one. [05:56] Yeah, absolutely so. [05:58] I think people that know me probably know that I love to jump to analogies or [06:04] metaphors I never quite know which ones which but I’ll put them in the same bucket and [06:09] I think for me. [06:10] going back and just [06:12] focusing on human behaviour is always really important and I think. [06:16] driving an emotional connection you know design is empathy it’s understanding and [06:21] for me, I love this kind of [06:23] thought of [06:25] I often see you know this idea of someone coming knocking on a door a bit of a cold call in a way and [06:30] trying to sell something and it’s a bit of a weird social construct. [06:34] And I kind of paint this picture if I’m walking down the street. [06:39] And I’m walking past this. [06:41] nice lawn and garden and it’s the guy on the corner and call him Matt for the sake of this conversation is probably easier and [06:47] Every day I go past and I kind of admire the garden and then I see him and I say oh, you know I love the garden. I walk this way to work just because I want to see this this nice garden. [06:57] And over time you know we just nod and wave and it’s something that I’m kind of building that long term. [07:04] conversation with [07:05] And I’m pretty sure. [07:07] That if I then went and said to Matt hey, you know that there’s this watering system that does it for you. You can sit back and enjoy your coffee and [07:14] you’d have to worry about watering your garden. [07:16] I’m sure he would be a lot more receptive to what I had to offer. [07:19] Yeah, probably invite me in and have a coffee. We could talk about it. [07:23] on the other hand [07:25] let’s say I just came up and [07:26] said knocked on the door. Hi you know maybe I didn’t even introduce myself, but it said I noticed you got a garden. [07:32] I got this cool watering feature. [07:34] I don’t know maybe he has the watering feature himself maybe he’s kind of going what are you talking about my Gardens Great why are you coming in and [07:41] offering me this and we don’t even know each other and I think. [07:44] I could give it a lot of these examples, but I think. [07:47] Really what it is is. [07:48] You’re designing experience. [07:51] you could see that come together in many different ways but [07:54] You can’t just think that there’s this kind of short form way of just quick I want to say and I’m going to move on and I think when we deal. [08:01] with patience specifically [08:03] we have to really understand that long term connection. I think is a really good kind of putting into practice the long and short of it and how you kind of need a balance of those. [08:12] obviously, it’s great to jump in and [08:14] you know drive a [08:16] Sale but you want to make sure that you’re there building this emotional connection and behavioural change over time. [08:22] absolutely [08:24] Matt how do you see that kind of from a strategic lens building that you know emotional connection? [08:29] Yeah, I I absolutely agree. I think that’s a great analogy. I think it’s it’s [08:34] totally appropriate to our industry right when you’re building that relationship over time we usually talk about it through. [08:40] personal sales and the field course and those kinds of things but [08:45] you know I I focus on that behaviour change aspect of it in my role and thinking about. [08:51] behavioural design and when you when you dig into that you’re starting with empathy [08:55] what are what do people need? Where are they getting stuck? Where’s those friction points? [08:59] And understanding that to solution that through. [09:03] beautiful design or great experiential programs or effective Communications [09:08] It’s still boils down to understanding someone’s needs. [09:13] And not looking at it through kind of day. What do I need to do but how? [09:18] Do I need to meet them where they’re at in order to affect the change and have the impact I’m trying to have. [09:23] again it when we [09:25] when it boils down and we talked about this at transform quite a bit. [09:28] but it boils down technology is a means to an end, but if it’s not constructed and starting from a place of empathy and [09:35] understanding [09:37] usually Falls pretty flat [09:38] that’s a really nice. [09:40] sort of reminder of the importance [09:42] that Joe was putting the law of the long and the short of it. [09:45] that [09:46] there’s a reason why. [09:48] companies [09:49] the approach over the years has been you know disease awareness. [09:53] Proceeding you know branded work. [09:55] because you’re trying to create that empathetic sort of basis or Foundation [10:00] upon which to build [10:03] perhaps a branded relationship or you know a call to Action [10:07] fulfillment adherence you name it. [10:09] and so is [10:11] you know I want to get to some examples but before we get there. [10:15] Do you what’s the kind of state of the state of the industry? [10:19] With regard to the long in the short- of it, do you see? [10:23] the industry kind of [10:24] you know that there’s there’s need for improvement there. [10:27] Yeah, I am met welcome your thoughts as well, but I think. [10:32] One thing that we’ve found since we set out you know in sort of. [10:36] changing the way that we treat design in Healthcare [10:39] is that [10:41] There is a bit of a short term mentality and I think the nature of the products we work on you know there’s time spans. There’s the role of advertising there’s the kind of Peter B approach. [10:51] It’s Complicated and it’s nuanced and I think. [10:54] ultimately [10:56] the same [10:57] principles remain you know we talk about hcps. They are people to they shop at the same supermarkets. They make those purchasing decisions. [11:05] However, we treat them differently because there’s a lot of context and it’s relevant but I think ultimately. [11:11] We have to start adopting more of this. I think that’s been the challenge. There’s some. [11:16] I might be controversial and sayings but antiquated mentality when it comes to advertising in this field. [11:24] And I think that’s really important that we kind of constantly push. [11:27] Ourselves to to look out there and see what can influence that so I think. [11:32] The current state, I think is only improving and I think we’ve seen in the last decade. [11:36] People are understanding that and and I think it’s a really healthy conversation because no longer are relationships. Just enough you have to build that experience and get people across the line. [11:47] And I think we’re also seeing. [11:48] A pharmaceutical companies realizing the importance of their brand people care about who’s behind the products that they get and they want to know where that’s coming from so I’ve seen a lot more of that. [11:59] In our experiences with clients who are building that brand equity and and making that more of a Focus in what we’re doing. [12:05] is there a difference between [12:08] You know oh man I’ve seen so much. [12:10] you know ads for [12:13] autoimmune drugs on daytime television [12:16] it’s wow, it’s you know. [12:17] Pharma commercial after Pharma commercial [12:19] that and as you say creating that empathetic Foundation is are you saying that? [12:24] the current [12:25] approach needs more of a [12:27] design [12:28] Foundation as well [12:30] yeah, and I think ultimately storytelling place such a big role, I think with kind of been. [12:36] you know weld for a long time of [12:38] a little bit of the traditional advertising model and I think what we’re seeing is platforms. [12:43] social [12:44] Media the way that things play out [12:46] allows you to comment touch on all those different touch points at different times so Matt would. [12:51] be able to tell you all about you know I’m trying to strategy and [12:55] more so you know I’ve seen the shift from this kind of more linear mentality and approach to [12:59] how you connect those dots and I think sometimes our traditional methods of [13:04] communication [13:05] can be a little bit linear a little bit one way conversational. I think what we’re seeing is. [13:09] That’s opening up and I just think. [13:11] the way that a spot [13:13] showed up [13:14] you know [13:14] a decade ago is extremely different to now so I think. [13:18] It’s really just about driving that pushing that and knowing the limitations and often those limitations can. [13:24] Create opportunities to be creative and Express in different ways that we might not be currently. [13:30] Sure, how about we get to some examples? What do you see is great examples of [13:35] design and health care and what makes them great [13:38] I just had one example that I wanted to kind of get into the nuances as it relates to visual design and that’s one medical. [13:44] I think it’s a really great example of putting the person at the center of the experience because [13:50] it’s really I’m focusing on the identity. [13:52] You know it’s about the importance of brand but one medical as a subscription service is really about making. [13:58] Healthcare accessible [14:00] and it’s doing it in a way that’s just enjoyable. [14:02] I know Amazon in the last year has come into the 4a and [14:06] Let’s see how that evolves. [14:08] I just think that. [14:10] What’s really interesting about one medical is I think it was. [14:13] probably about [14:14] 2007 or so they came into the the market? [14:18] and for about 10 years they kind of built and scale and [14:21] I believe they had a lot of success in that but one thing that happened was that they’re identity became quite complex. [14:27] and hard to use and the nature of any business building especially in the Startup world so [14:33] About a decade later, they kind of brought in a studio in San Francisco Monica and they really focused on. [14:39] Understanding what the brands stood for they worked with the internal design team which I think to really critical and we see a lot more of that these days. [14:47] Bringing in that Consulting help to understand the issues. [14:50] kind of build from the Ground Up [14:53] but the result is just a really beautiful built platform and design system and [14:58] I believe that there was a bit more focus on the One part of one medical. What does that mean you see that reflect in a lot of the materials? [15:06] I know that they use different sort of vendors and Partners to treat the logo type you know for photography illustration is a more human connected. [15:15] And if even just crafting custom typefaces, I think it really Built This consistency. [15:21] And every turn I think it delivers. I use one medical so I can give it a plug and I know that no matter what offers I go into. [15:28] Within the state or outside of it’s going to be consistent. [15:32] And I just think from their off. It’s nothing wild it’s not like they’ve gone and [15:36] kind of made everything lavish and premium, but the feeling you get is premium because [15:42] it’s just nice design choices the furniture that you get I think they want them to things on the [15:47] On the counter, but it’s even the way that you get greeted and approached. [15:51] And then it’s that consistency when you get back at home and you’re on your app. You can see exactly a summary of the doctors. [15:57] Conversations you can see medications history vitals. [16:01] And it’s all done. Just really beautifully and I think like. [16:04] At every turn you can really see the Investment there. [16:07] On just quality beautiful design. [16:10] there [16:11] provision of healthcare services and deal to Great [16:14] place for an intentionally built design system, so that’s a great one. [16:19] Matt so what do you think? Yeah? I mean I [16:21] typically would answer this question like I like that think about some of the critical areas of health care right so no slight to [16:29] Our friends in the business to agencies in Pharma clients, if you want great examples of campaign work. [16:35] Go to mm and m. [16:36] They’re wonderful at featuring it right shameless plug your local Mark thank you like right like Ward winning work all of that stuff is brilliant for me. It usually comes down to kind of the broader parts that are usually the [16:49] more challenging sticking points I think yoga great example in one medical of [16:54] What can be a fragmented experience depending on when you go into an office and what you receive later in some health portal or whatever? [17:02] They’ve done a really nice job about thinking about that totality of the customer experience. [17:06] I go to a couple. [17:08] Health insurance is usually leaves a lot to be desired from a customer experience perspective. [17:16] Oscar I think it’s done a brilliant job it kind of almost consumerization. [17:25] Right so from the website to their app their thinking about user first approach. [17:31] clean lines clear information really [17:34] friendly visuals and iconography and those other elements that [17:38] we see you know if you look at financial services. [17:41] Most bank websites are very practical functional. [17:44] and you get to the [17:45] Robin Hoods and the [17:47] wealth fronts and those others that it feel a lot more user oriented. I think Oscar does that in health insurance really nicely and I think they pressured some of the other sites to do the same. [17:58] You know it makes it easy to understand your coverage to find a doctor that’s in your plan. [18:03] Track your health data and great visualisations. [18:07] and it’s really focused on kind of that transparency and accessibility that makes it not feel so [18:13] Stuffy and clinical and cold like some of parts of our industry unfortunately can be at times. [18:19] And I think the other one that I go to is you know I could talk about Apple and health apple health and apple watch and all of those things and apple fitness. [18:28] It’s brilliant & app. I have on my phone. [18:31] That honestly surprised me when I first got it. It’s called well, Tori [18:36] So I track my personal health stats and it aggregates all that data. Just like some of those other apps. [18:42] For my watch to Apple health to some of the other wearables and other things that I use personally. [18:48] But what separates it for me is? [18:50] the ability for a divisionalized data [18:53] It’s my health data. [18:54] Right and it provides. [18:56] very clear insights [18:59] and personalized recommendations that maybe I need to meditate because my stress level is up or listen to music. [19:04] Or get more sleep alright like all of those things but it’s in this. [19:08] beautifully designed [19:10] app and it has the nudges along the way that remind me that my [19:14] steps goal and my calories goal or my sleep goals. [19:18] and then [19:19] I think my favorite feature is it kind of has this? [19:22] Throughout the day kind of nudge. [19:25] That shows me kind of three areas and it’s stress energy and health. [19:29] and there’s all these metrics that feed into those things but it’s got this beautiful visualisation that [19:35] is kind of the red yellow green and it’s the evidence flows and it generally it’s about 99% of the time totally accurate to [19:42] hittin that afternoon mole and wondering why and it’s because my stress levels are up. [19:47] Or I didn’t get enough sleep and it’s just a it’s a really great way of kind of quantifying and visualizing. [19:53] What’s going on from all these different sources and just a beautifully wonderful way. [19:58] And it affects my chain it affects my behavior right. It tells me I need to take a step back and maybe go for a walk or a rest or [20:05] avoid caffeine like the day or whatever those things are that I wouldn’t necessarily stop and think about. [20:11] and to me that’s the perfect example of we can start to replicate those things and life sciences and Pharma [20:18] my gosh like we could affect the change that we’ve desperately seeked to do. [20:22] In our patients every day lives or the Physicians are providers every day lives. [20:27] yeah, well said and [20:29] you know the [20:30] Key there or the operative orders there is that you actually use? [20:33] And act on that data, so you know it’s working alright and obviously we’ve been kind of dancing around. It’s this topic for the last 15 minutes or so about you know the principles of behavioral science. [20:43] which is not necessarily new to advertising you know it’s been [20:47] many decades since those were introduced and you know marketers taking kind of a psychological approach to you know okay is the customer ready to change. How do we get them to change? [20:57] As you said, what are those nudges? You know that we can do and whether it’s game of vacation or it’s [21:02] playing off of the [21:03] competitive nature of doctors or [21:05] Choice architecture, you know when it comes to. [21:08] presenting consumers with with choices [21:10] those things are alive and well in advertising but [21:14] you’re giving examples here. [21:16] and making the point that we still have a ways to go to replicate this as you said and in Pharma [21:21] so let’s assume that you know you’ve got. [21:24] a great intentionally designed system [21:26] whatever it is for your your product or brand. [21:29] How do you then get that in front of the right people do you have to then? [21:33] Design the right media plan you know you buy paid Media campaigns and that kind of thing too. [21:37] bring [21:38] attention to it to bring eyeballs to it. Can you can you talk to that and how about we stick with you on this one Matt [21:44] Yeah, I don’t want Joe answering this one so I’ll answer it. He’s a creative Guy [21:49] yeah, right no and we we have a [21:52] loving kinship here [21:55] Yeah, look, this is what I do all day and every day that. [21:58] like [21:59] gets me fired up right. This is what on the channel is intended to do. [22:04] It’s about making sure that beautifully wonderfully designed. [22:08] campaign calms messaging [22:11] Does reach the right people gives them? [22:14] the right message right that cohesive or engaging experience that [22:19] gets them to engage at that right moment. [22:22] In that thing that they’re needing to do next or right now. [22:26] to that ultimately leads to those outcomes right so [22:29] What we do and how we think about it going back to kind of what we’re talking about earlier. [22:34] Is we start with empathy right and that’s about understanding our audiences think about personas or segments or right just really deeply understanding. [22:43] Who they are what are they care about? What are the channels? They use what are their affinities? [22:47] For an hcp like Joe said there are people too so what’s that? [22:51] white Coat moments and those blue Jean moments [22:54] and then we also pair that with [22:56] doing our research to really discover those moments that truly matter in their journey. [23:02] And with those two pieces of who they are what they care about what they’re into what makes them distinct as a group of people or a cohort or a segment. [23:12] And what’s that typical journey that naturally occurs in the wild? [23:16] Once we get clear on that. [23:18] then we [23:19] are looking at [23:21] How do we leverage the things beyond the basic demographic site could graphics like dislikes affinities and all those things? [23:27] to Leverage data and Analytics [23:30] marketing technology all of those things AI machine learning [23:35] Alright, how how we can understand from what’s worked in the past? [23:38] Where do we optimise when and where and how do we show up? [23:42] That’s that’s smart ecosystem. That really is all about. [23:47] Understanding those needs at those points and then because we’ve come so far. [23:52] Having data and Analytics and technology really supporting a lot of this stuff. [23:56] We know a lot about our audiences. [24:00] That we can personalise we can automate we can do those things that we all appreciate in our everyday lives when we see it of. [24:07] Don’t talk to me about something. I’ve already kind of committed to. [24:11] Talk to me about what my next step is what do I need to know? What do I need to expect? [24:15] and healthcare that’s [24:16] critically important for a patient [24:18] that may be going on a product that’s got some new ones. [24:22] You know side effects or other things but if I’m not prepared for that and that’s unexpected. [24:26] That’s not the positive experience we want but when we appropriately set those expectations and educate them and provide them the resources and information. [24:34] At that point in time. [24:36] Now it’s top of mind. They’re ready for it. They can talk to their physician about how to prepare. [24:41] That’s a beautiful experience in a very complex and highly personal area that is health care. [24:47] Absolutely yeah, you know the product is safe and effective when it reaches market. [24:51] But you might not know that. Oh, you know I’m gonna get a little itchy when I take this or I’m going to have some site swelling or something that you know where people react differently to different things and [25:02] those really you’re right those really do. [25:04] lead to a good experience or a bad one so [25:07] how about we just finished up with but having you both? [25:10] weigh in on the following question [25:12] Kind of a sort of an existential One future, looking one. [25:15] How might we all be better designers in the future? I think this is your chance to kind of [25:20] talk to your fellow marketers your fellow farmer marketers out there about how they can you know view their work with more of a design lens, you want to. [25:28] Take this through that first get your take on it yeah can do. [25:32] yeah, this is [25:33] one that’s hard to kind of pinpoint you know in a [25:36] sort of [25:37] concise way, because I think there’s many things that we can do to all be better. [25:42] but I think [25:43] a couple of things that come to mind is just [25:45] I think we need to get uncomfortable you know as a creative. I think taking calculated risks and kind of getting over ourselves a little bit our inhibitions and [25:55] and really just [25:56] Discovering I think you know often hear. [26:00] People sort of say I went to school and I studied this and you know and I’ve got my qualifications and here I go and I say yeah, it’s great. Obviously I support the Education but [26:10] it it kind of doesn’t mean much unless you’re putting into real word practice and I think. [26:15] great designers [26:16] They can’t help it solve problems and I think if you’re. [26:20] a creative especially in you know you’re [26:23] sitting in a vehicle you’re going to look at the interface and get [26:26] Could be better, how could we reconfigure that? [26:29] You probably fly on a plane and you’re gonna. [26:32] want to [26:33] you know REdesign that [26:35] emergency guide I don’t know how much that’s going to help you and you on. [26:39] Trying to find their escape route on the you know Atlantic ocean. I think it’s [26:43] these moments are in front of you and behind you exactly and yet to see any of us have to thankfully and hopefully never. [26:52] Recall that information, but there’s this always these. [26:55] moments where you just [26:57] you’ve got to be hungry for it and I think. [27:00] Making sure that you’re uncomfortable is hard, but being fearless and jumping into that is really important. [27:06] and I think one other thing that I just think is is really important is [27:12] the fundamental thing for for design visual design specifically is just craft. [27:18] There’s no shortcuts and I think there’s this kind of [27:21] Mentality you know we want to work Smarter not harder and I totally support it. I think there’s always ways to kind of work Smarter [27:28] However, there’s no shortcuts to craft a craft comes from something that’s passed down something that we have laboured over and I think. [27:35] Even if you spent 10 years honing your craft, so you can do it in 10 minutes great. [27:39] But you have to earn that and I think even you know you could say that. [27:43] Spending 10 hours to craft over the perfect word mark. [27:48] You got to do it and it only becomes easier. [27:52] And I think what’s really important is. [27:55] As the world kind of evolves and we get these tools. I think AI specifically is being very fundamental in how we’re evolving in our industry. [28:05] it’s [28:05] kind of going back to analogies like [28:08] if you’re a chef you put love into your meal like. [28:11] You always have to put that love into it and it’s always felt. [28:15] And it doesn’t matter how much we try you know you can. [28:18] Have the right words the right visuals and you can Curate and put them together– but you’ve got to take the time to put them together. [28:23] Because I think at the end of the day if you don’t. [28:26] like in a meal you [28:28] You run the risk of serving up a microwave dinner. You know it’s got to have that love. [28:33] And rigger and that really comes from craft and time and dedication. [28:36] And that’s I think some fundamental ways that we can all be. [28:39] Better at our craft and in this case design. [28:43] Absolutely, so there was moments when you you’re noticing you know bad design as well. [28:48] As good and you’re lean into those moments and you know sees on that. [28:51] absolutely [28:53] Matt what do you think? [28:54] yeah, I mean I [28:56] a couple of things that I think build on that of [28:59] Going back to kind of a couple of things that we talked about in this that. [29:04] It’s super cliche to talk about human centered design and but at the crux of what that is. [29:09] the best creatives the best designers and even [29:13] from [29:13] broader definition to design [29:16] Are always curious about what someone’s gone through before we’re talking to them after we’re talking through them? [29:23] Right, so when we talk about patient journeys in the roller coasters and and some cases they’re they’ve been through the wringer. [29:30] by the time [29:31] our brand is even appropriate. [29:33] Having that context and being curious about that context. [29:37] makes for a very different design approach and generally at different [29:41] creative output [29:43] because they’re taking that empathetic view. [29:46] And part of that too is also understanding how. [29:48] our intended audience are using these channels right so [29:52] the temptation is [29:54] things are moving quick. I’m just going to go to the things that I know were based on past work, but when you take a little bit of a fresh pause there. [30:02] And think about oh, this is actually younger audience. I need to think about how they’re using these are they using them for Discovery [30:08] of information are they using it for? [30:11] Making a decision or they using it for support. [30:15] Understanding that and the experience that those people are going through. [30:19] I think is an absolutely critical skill that I see the best. [30:22] visual designers and programs designers [30:25] the other aspect is [30:27] probably the most encouraging part of my job is a lot more of the creative teams are now. [30:33] appreciative of [30:34] thinking about those moments that truly matter providing that context and understanding that context for [30:40] the communications the programmes the experiences that were offering in there because it gives them a sense of. [30:45] I don’t have to do everything. [30:47] I just need to focus on helping this person from point a to point b. [30:51] so that they can [30:53] get to the next step right when you have that context and understand the people. [30:57] And where they’re at and where this. [30:59] Element ore this experience where this creative is going to show up? [31:04] It’s it’s so beautifully crafted and I’m in all every day at the people that do to create a work in our business. It’s my favorite part of this business. [31:13] And I love being able to support that to give them that context and help them see that more broadly. [31:19] Because it just it leads to the most. [31:21] Meaningful impactful work that we feel really really good about doing. [31:25] Which is why most of us got into this business? [31:27] Absolutely really is all about the craft and there’s no shortcuts there. [31:31] and [31:32] I want to just thank you both you know for articulating so well that idea. [31:36] And the importance of craft to you know design thinking and Pharma marketing. [31:41] And we need to start with empathy whether it’s an hcp or a patient a pay or pharmacist to whomever. [31:46] And what they’ve been through and what moments of the journey matter to them and once you have that and use omni channel to get in front of the right people. [31:53] you’re well on your way to replicating Great design so [31:56] pleasure to talk to you both. [31:58] Thank you so much for joining us. [31:59] Thank you having us absolutely. Thank you. Thanks Matt [32:03] Always enjoy the conversations. [32:05] I wish I could say this is true. [32:07] Yes.