Lippe Taylor is MM+M’s reigning Best PR Firm and Silver winner for overall Best Midsize agency. In this episode, the agency’s CEO and chief creative officer (Paul Dyer and Craig Elimeliah) talk about how Friction Mapping and Earned-First Creative have led to breakthrough results for Pharma and OTC brands, including discussion of the industry’s first ever AI-generated book for rare disease.

Note: MM+M uses speech-recognition software to generate transcripts, which may contain errors. Please use the transcript as a tool but check the corresponding audio before quoting this content.

Jack I’ll give you a cue here.

Mmm agency 100 Studio sessions

Libby Taylor, okay, we’re rolling.


this is Jack O’Brien digital editor at m Eminem. I’m super excited for you to plug into this episode of a 100 Studio sessions a new podcast series, which gets members of the mmm agency of 100 list and opportunity to Riff on what sets them apart.

In this episode. We’re focusing on lip detailer and earn first creative agency based out of New York. I’m joined today by Paul Dyer CEO of Flippy Taylor and Craig Ellie Melia Chief creative officer.

Paul Craig, thanks for joining us today morning.

Thanks for having us.

I mentioned in the jump that you’re earned first creative agency. I wanted to start the conversation there just with a basic understanding of what that means and how it kind of sets you apart from maybe some of the other agencies that are on our list.

Sure, I can take a stab at this to start Craig and then obviously jump in and what I would say is that earned first is both an ethos a way of doing work and an idea of what that work should look like in execution to start with the ethos. It basically says that brands that historically were able to sort of muscle their way to the top by just spending more aren’t able to do that anymore. So whether you were pharmaceutical product that was able historically to just have a larger sales force bigger rebates bigger ad spend, you know, that that was really all it took to succeed historically or if you were a consumer health product just distribution end caps, you know again bigger ad spend bigger celebrities Etc. You could essentially buy success and that really doesn’t work anymore and most of the brands that were most excited about

That you see winning Awards and all those kinds of things are doing it with less resources and they’re doing it by outsmarting and working harder and doing what we call earning it right earning that success. And so to embrace that ethos is to say essentially well, what would you do if you didn’t have any advertising spend at all, you know, who would you partner with? What would you do instead of what would you say to make sure somebody heard it seven times or whatever your magical number is, you know, what would you do to try and build this brand if you didn’t have any AD spend and usually when you start from that place you land on much more creative ideas. And once you’ve done that thing whatever that thing is well now you can go advertise about it because you probably do have some ad spend and that’s what it means to be

earned first. Yeah, I think from a creative standpoint like Paul said it really is a mindset. It’s a mindset that

Sets you apart from you know, just just the jump the first idea the first iteration of kind of where you want to go with any sort of, you know, sort of any any sort of brand or or campaign. I think you really start with how how do we first sort of insert ourselves in culture? How do we connect with culture? How do we connect with people? How do we earn their respect? How do we earn their attention oftentimes when we say it and of course, we say it a lot because we believe in it and we evangelize it people will say oh earned media and no it’s not earned media, right? It really is this sort of earned first mindset. It’s sort of similar to like a growth mindset. It’s like really thinking about how to initially sort of present your client with ideas that have the potency to really establish themselves in culture as something that people can lie align their values to something that people can connect to not just, you know, not just winning.

Customers by spending. It sounds like it’s kind of a proactive approach and kind of you know, taking the reins of of what you as an agency do and empowering your clients that way and I want to understand that Dynamic of kind of taking the storytelling into more of a story making approach. I don’t know maybe Craig if you want to start and then Paul if you want to jump in

sure brand ax really are what people connect to you know, I think we started seeing it with Brands like REI when they told you to opt outside, you know, it really is about again, I’m gonna say it again aligning your values with your customers and making sure that they feel like the brands that they’re associating with are, you know part of their narrative part of their story that they can see themselves living within sort of that narrative, right? So I think in a consumer-led world where consumers really are the ones that are driving engagement, they’re the ones that are sort of dictating how they choose to interact with Brands. I think Brands now have to take that sort of story making

Approach because you know, it’s stories that people connect to it’s stories that people can understand and its stories that allow themselves to sort of see them see where they fit within within that brand narrative. So, you know, you can say oh you want, you know and people you know, there’s just too much to listen to you know, and I think people are really drawn to brands that are doing things and making things that that they can touch and feel and really sort of associate themselves with

yeah. I think that really captures the essence of story making it’s not that we don’t still appreciate the Art of Storytelling. It’s certainly part of what we do. But if you look at across the whole medical marketing landscape and just run a Google search for you know, quote unquote real stories. It’s it’s everywhere every brand is telling real stories and to people just tuning them out.

Know it’s it’s sort of Arc. If you will from starting with brand narratives and Brands were, you know had to nail the message and you know Etc to telling the patient story or telling the doctor story or telling the story through somebody else’s eyes and it’s just we’ve we’ve, you know overdone that overplayed that hand so many times that you know, people just gloss over it now, so you have to do something worth talking about for people to pay attention to it. And that’s the transition from storytelling to story making and I don’t know maybe to bring it to life. It might be better to use an example when Craig if you want to talk about the children’s book sure that’s probably a good example.

Yeah, you know, so again, I think that

when your story making it really has to

Be both relevant and differentiated. Right? Like it has to connect to people in an authentic way, but it has to say something different than everything else is saying so we recently had a project where alberteo is a client of ours that treats a rare disease a rare liver disease for young children, and there was an opportunity there where they wanted to Simply create some

Content or I think it was honestly I think was a PDF that would talk about the condition and what kids go through. So we saw that as an opportunity to actually create a children’s book that would resonate with kids suffering from this disease and help them see them help them help them be seen but also help them be able to tell other people about what their experiencing and what they’re going through now, I don’t need to tell you publishing a book is no small feat especially in a regulated industry like a farm industry, so

We we had this idea to use AI.

To not just help write the book but illustrate the book ring the book to life and even think about what sort of data can we Infuse into the AI to help inform the outcome of the book and I think we all know is kind of on this precipice of a new age and AI sort of is the buzzword, but we wanted to use it in a really genuine really authentic way that helped the consumer that helped the people

that we were

sort of, you know creating it for and in short time. We were we published a beautiful beautiful book. We were able to create a central character named Holly which is now a piece of IP for that client and write a story. That was truly, you know, putting that

Human at the center of what it was all about and really thinking about, you know handing the book to a kid reading the book to a kid presenting the book to a kid how the kid might experience that book and how they might then share that with others. You know, that’s a big deal today. I think if you saw a headline on the news and it said, you know Alberto rare disease pharmaceutical company uses AI to create

the children’s book this new character this new I so again all the clicks you get all the clicks, but I think people are really interested in companies that are using culture and the pervasive sort of technology and and resources that we have today not in ways that extract value from consumers, but actually provide value right? I think that’s where

you know

as a culture we tend to be sort of wary of Technology because it’s all about like

cookies and data extraction and whatnot and here, you know, I think we sort of

turning the tables a little bit and you know sort of giving our client our brand an opportunity to

to story make to story do and create something using something that people might view as scary but in a way that that helps Humanity.

Absolutely. I want to kind of pivot the conversation a little bit Paul. You’re obviously known for being a leader in the analytics space. You have a background with building the analytics capability at real chemistry and Craig. Obviously you come from the creative technology side. Your title says as much I’m really kind of curious how you two have been managed to bring those things together because obviously I think to you know, the Layman they might think oh analytics there’s no creative side to it and creative doesn’t need an analytics. But obviously those two need to work in tandem if you’re gonna have an agency it’s gonna be able to Excel on both fronts.


I mean certainly this is something Craig and I talk about a lot and I would say it is one of the advantages of being sort of that mid-size independent kind of agency because your your team isn’t pushed into opposite corners of the globe, right? We all work together very closely on a daily basis from the analytics side. What I would say is

every major agency every major research house vendor, you know Etc and you know in-house teams and clients have been investing significantly in their data science capabilities or Tech Stacks, you know Etc and I was in the front lines of that a decade ago, you know, when companies were pouring hundreds of millions into Data lakes and you know, those kinds of things and what I came away from the experience with and sort of version one was that agencies like ours should not be investing money like that to build these these massive Big Data Systems, which is what every major agency has done hundreds of millions of dollars go into the systems that will very quickly be outdated and that can in no way service all of the very different use cases. They’re gonna come up.

So you end up with instead is you’ve got agency teams across lots of different clients, you know, they go to their Tech stack that they spend hundreds of millions of dollars on and they put in a couple queries and they get out, you know, like very very generalized audience data and things like that and it doesn’t really help them come up with a creative idea. It just helps them say was that there was Data behind it. What we focus on instead is creating data science capabilities instead of data science products or data science system. And so what that means is we’ve got probably 15 people who you know, statisticians and and computer scientists that

They have a workbench of a lot of different approaches. They can use to scrape data model data put together different data sets that wouldn’t typically be put together and their Adept at working with Craig’s team and other teams within our agency to essentially form hypotheses. So instead of just saying like well, what is the tool tell me about you know, patients of disease X. We have to work together and form a hypothesis and then go and and get data that maybe people haven’t looked at in this way before because you almost never find an Insight in a single data set. It’s always when data sets disagree with one. Another that you find the Insight is like why is this one saying X and the other one saying why and that’s where the Insight lies and the whole process which is kind of like going back to the beginning of scientific inquiry right is forming hypothesis, testing the hypothesis getting data from different places. And so that’s been our approach on the data science front is it’s really been

Find to empower Greg’s team and creative and other teams across the agency to to answer totally bespoke questions.

and Craig, how is that empowerment worked on your side was the creative output looked like

I mean

so for me because I do have a technical background because I do appreciate sort of the to Paul’s point the tension that arise in those data sets that do disagree with one another I think from a creative standpoint. That’s what you look for you look for tension, right you look for the opportunity to find sort of these opposing forces and then use that as kind of your Insight and that to sort of bust something open and make something out of it. You know, I’ve always been very close anyone who’s worked with me know is like I’ve always been very close to data analytics and strategy and really using that as my creative fuel, you know, so I think from from a applied creativity standpoint to me that’s kind of how I think about it, you know, it’s consumers are data sales or data behaviors our data everything we everything we sort of service is

Are in service of is data. And in order to provide that service we sort of apply creativity to that data. And I think when you look at any of the best work out there and you really kind of like sort of unpack it a little bit that it’s all really well informed by data. There’s a data point there. There’s something there that was kind of Unearthed that allowed that piece of work to truly stand out. So for for me at least it’s just a natural fit. There’s no sort of friction there whatsoever. It really is one in the same. I don’t see

Data and analytics is something separate from creativity. I sort of see it as as kind of the Point of Departure. And then from there is when we kind of, you know, take take what what we can and turn it into something that people people love to engage with.

Oh, I want to ask you a follow-up question just about where you see this kind of Confluence of analytics technology and creative going in the future. Obviously you Craig was referencing earlier. The fact that AI is top of mind. I can’t think of the last time that I’ve talked to an agency head where that didn’t come up in some sort of aspect of conversation either with using chat GPT or trying to create create their own generative AI model, but like obviously the future is out there. It seems kind of unknown, but I’m curious from your perspective where you kind of see the the tea leaves going.

I mean the way that I would read the tea leaves is AI is absolutely gonna be baked into every aspect of the job moving forward. It’s just going to be an accelerant just like having you know, your your software your fingertips and your mobile device was a massive accelerant to us, you know in the last 10 or 15 years and it’s gonna make things, you know faster better Etc. I mean Craig talked about the book that it looks like Pixar designed that book.

But it was a computer, you know, and it couldn’t do it on its own.

It required creative inspiration leadership guidance Etc to do that. But I think you’re gonna see AI as a massive accelerant and I think that you’re going to see teams are gonna have to come back into more of a SWAT like structure, which is something that we’ve done in the last year is restructure our agency to be more around sort of SWAT teams instead of having your sort of you know, your Silo of creative is over here or an analytics is over there and media is in a different corner and Etc as we’ve we’ve had to create SWAT teams around whether it’s therapeutic areas whether it’s clients Etc.

And I think you’re gonna see that’s gonna have to happen more and more because as AI speeds things up that’s going to be everybody’s expectation is well, why can’t you do this faster?

And the only way to get it done faster is to have those people working together really closely instead of in a supply chain, you know where they’re sort of doing the research over here and then passing it on to somebody else to have the insight and passing on to somebody else to have the idea Etc. So

You know what? I would say probably probably the best example, I was thinking as Craig was talking. I’m like, how do I what’s an example of this that that what I would be proud of you know, if work we’ve done because as any agency goes you’ve got, you know, some of your work is is just mind blowing and so inspirational and some of your work is just work,

you know, you

do your best to make it all as as good as it can be but that’s the honest truth and the the, you know, the the piece of work we’ve done that I’m probably most proud of I feel like does bring all these things together and it was it was done for aspirin.

And it won all kinds of awards. Although I think it got like second place to our other campaign and all the award shows but I like this was good competition. I like this one better. So so think about this from the start like aspirin comes to us and they said, you know, we want people who suffered a heart attack to take an aspirin a day. This is the brief. It’s supported by the the research Etc and

You know, we are our dated team comes up with this brilliant Insight which is did. You know that after you’ve suffered a heart attack?

the actual rhythm of your heartbeat changes

and that’s a creative Insight. That’s a spark for an idea. That’s not just so here’s a share of voice, you know, or you know people 35 and over, you know, who their loved ones have a heart attack. They you know, like radius being magazine or whatever, you know, it’s it’s a spark you can work with and so then the creative team comes up and says, you know instead of just having a television commercial about this which is what the initial Ad Agency it suggested. What if we did something what if we made a story

And so we said well, why don’t we actually record the new heartbeat of a heart attack Survivor and then write an original song set to the beat of that heartbeat and then give it as a gift to his family.

And so that was when data science comes back in and says well, who would we do that with right? And then that’s the identification of the casting for Leslie Odom Jr. Who’s father-in-law was a heart attack Survivor and the whole thing became very iterative.

You know where everybody was was part of the process together and in very short order they were able to get in touch with those people actually record. His father-in-law’s heartbeat produced an original track that Leslie and his wife sang together and then create a 360 program around that it’s like now you’ve done something and when you hear that idea, you’re like that’s an idea worth talking about that’s a new store. You’ve made a story that aspirin owns and now you can advertise as much as you want about the fact that you made that new story. So that’s that’s to me that’s an example of how like everybody has to be sitting at the table together and he added, you know, use the data in the creativity sort of and in conjunction there.

It is really interesting to hear you detail that because I remember when that came out and it was such a it was one of those things where it’s like that’s such an interesting idea but it’s like walking through the exact process of like it starts here and then we have additions throughout the team on the way really kind of speaks to the kind of deciled nature every leader I talk to you is like we break down silos we can get to that and it sounds like that’s kind of

Similar on that front. I didn’t want to bury the lead because Craig had brought up earlier that writing a book is obviously challenged but Paul you’ve written

the book.

That’s true. Yes,

and it was a Wall Street Journal best seller friction fatigue. I’m curious what insights came from that experience. Obviously, if it’s a lengthy process of writing a book rewrites revisions all that sort of stuff, you know one how did it start and to what was the experience like

Um, it started during covid and

everybody else is making sourdough bread and I just

felt like we’re gonna do more productive.

Yeah. There’s I mean I’ve been giving talks for years to clients and you know industry events and those kinds of things and you can always tell when there’s stories that land and that people people lean in for those stories and then there’s stories that I thought were really interesting to nobody else cares about and so at some point I kind of had the the realization that I should start to write these down.

And I did but then the real like moment of like this is the moment where I think these should all be brought together and told as a cohesive narrative was actually Michael Bloomberg’s total bust of a campaign for president.

Because the main thesis of the book is that advertising.

Is no longer the power in once was that advertising is a depreciating asset that you have to spend more money to get the same impact year over year over year and now it’s those things are actually diverging right you got to spend more money and you’re getting less impact year over year over year as people are just tuning it out, you know and moving into an era where they actually get angry about advertising which is a whole new, you know period and Bloomberg was the inspiration because he spent 600 million dollars in the course of a couple of months and got nothing for it. We

got 12 delegates.

He did he did well delegates he spent more than than both sides spent on the entire previous campaign.

Right in six months and got nothing for it, which just it was like this advertising is not working like it used to and so that was the moment that was like this is why it’s time to put the book out. Now the process was relatively painless believe it or not. And I think it’s just because if I tried to do it again, I’m out of good stories. So it would be really painful to do it now, but I had 10 years of stories that I could that I could put into the book and I’ve been thinking about it for a long time. So for those who don’t know the book is called friction fatigue.

It’s about how as I’ve said, you know, people are essentially fatigued with advertising causing friction in their lives. And you’ve got that is in direct opposition to how Google Amazon Apple Etc have been maniacal about eliminating friction from our lives. And then you have advertising that pops up in this designed exclusively to quote unquote disrupt you

When you don’t want to be disrupted, so to your point you have it landed. It was a Wall Street Journal best seller and now it’s really become the backbone of a lot of the offering of what we do for our clients is we’ll start with what we call friction mapping. It’s a process. It’s part of a broader Suite of offerings called CX2 which relates to customer experience and customer expectations and says that essentially everybody’s thinking about customer experience today. How do we improve the customer experience whether that customers doctors or patients or whoever how do we improve the customer experience? But the customer experience doesn’t happen in a vacuum?

Right, everybody has an expectation before that experience. So if you’re going into a doctor’s office, you have an expectation how long you’re gonna wait you have an expectation of how much time you’ll have at the doctor and of how much you know, what questions you want to ask and how the doctor’s gonna engage with you and you have all these expectations and then the experience is gonna be shaped by those but nobody Maps the expectations and so that’s something that we we put a lot of thought and effort into is developing CX2 is how do we map the expectations people have at every stage of the journey and then identify the places where there’s friction because if the expectations and the experience aren’t aligned that’s a friction point and everybody naturally thinks of that through this through the lens of are you meeting their expectations or not? And if you can exceed their expectations as well, that’s great.

But we actually think that’s bad also.

Expectations and experience should be exactly the same because if you’re beating their expectations, it means that their expectations are too low, so demand is depressed.

So I like to talk about this we think about like pain like an injection, you know, so people are it have an expectation of how painful and injections gonna be and maybe you ask them when they say I think it’s gonna be a six out of 10.

And then they go and they actually experience the injection and is a two out of 10 God. It’s great. You know, what if all of the potential patients knew it was only a two out of 10.

You’d have more patience coming in.

All right. So that’s the the friction mapping part of what we do is sort of a jumping off point to everything and that really was what came out of the book was we have to identify these these points of friction in the experience and then come up with things that we can do to essentially

alleviate them. It’s interesting you talk about the kind of the experience thing and using the idea of the shot or something where it’s like it shouldn’t just be oh, we we just nailed it that time it should be, you know, we’re trying to change the the discourse the whole dialogue around whatever that is. I’m curious if there’s any sort of examples as it relates to Libby Taylor clients where this friction mapping has worked out in some sort of way or it’s actually kind of redefined how you

approach the issue. So I don’t know that we could name any clients publicly. I would say there’s there’s one in particular where I think it has really completely changed their go-to-market strategy and it’s something that’s you know at the heart of the Roe v Wade discussion and all of these things that are very very polariz.

And very different regionally. And so what we’ve had to do is say, you know that the sort of typical patient Journey just doesn’t apply because having one patient journey in that kind of an environment is is it’s ludicrous the experience for you know, somebody and let’s call it rural Alabama versus The Experience for somebody in San Francisco are wildly different including their influences, including their expectations coming in and all those kinds of things. And so we had to actually get really really detailed and specific about all of the different friction maps and it’s changed their entire Road go to market strategy, but as well, thanks for because it’s because it’s been such a strategic initiative. I don’t think we can name them unfortunately, but

Craig I wanted to bring you back in the conversation because you’re gonna be sharing the New York advertising festivals future now executive jury curious what you’re gonna be looking for and maybe how in future Technologies are gonna be incorporated into the show.

Yeah, you know I think for me.

We are as a culture. We’re so steeped.

In technology right now. I think we’re sort of in this sort of kind of post-social post.

Platform post Tech world where you know, you’ve have you have a number of generations that don’t know what it’s like to be born without an iPhone or a tablet or AI, right. So for me, it really is about looking at the convergence of creativity and technology in in a way that feels really humid natural. I think that up until now we’ve seen a lot of examples of just kind of force fit.

You know things that are Force fit, you know over the years I’ve heard.

Teams come to me with ideas like Alexa.

Okay, what what do you mean?

Yeah, you

know like what what I’m looking for is

really the the sort of the the blending.

Of technology and create and creativity and and when I say technology, I don’t necessarily just mean you know, whatever is popular right now. I think it really is the idea of creating the conditions under which the Technologies completely invisible where you know, you talk about frictionless. There is no friction, right? You don’t need a headset or a handset or anything to experience.

Creative data or you know, whatever the idea that we’re looking at, you know for me. It’s about how human does it feel which is actually kind of the opposite of what you might think the category is about. Right? So we’re actually looking for how frictionless how seamless how human

people can sort of create

You know ideas that are rooted in Tech and it could be Cloud. It could be AI it could be whatever. It doesn’t really matter to me. I really I really want to see sort of the Ingenuity of how it can be frictionlessly sort of inserted in people’s lives in a way that again adds value not extract because up until now I think it really has been extraction. It’s like how much data can we get out of a person for me? It’s like how do you get someone to willingly want to give you that data? How do you get someone to willingly want to participate in something and it’s not about trickery anymore, you know as much as I’ve loved watching things like, you know offer detour and things that just kind of like play with people in ways that when you look back at it now, it’s sort of it’s a little sadistic, you know, it’s kind of like, you know, we’ve sort of weaponized technology to try to get as much out of our audiences as possible. I think now,

Up, there’s been flipped and I do think that consumers are just so much more savvy so much more aware and I think they’re looking for ways in which brands are genuinely.

applying technology to help

add value, you know, whether it’s setting it those expectations for what they’re about to do or applying it to the things that they’re doing and and and really having a fun time and human time in a cool time and all that good stuff. So that’s that’s kind of where my my eyes focused.

It’s funny Craig we didn’t talk about this before but you talk about the weaponization of some of these Technologies obviously retargeting is something that comes to mind and it’s one of the things that I talked about in the book is sort of the militarization of marketing we think about it step back and you think about when we talk about, you know, we’re going to acquire and Target and retarget and like these are military terms. It’s literally like we are going to war with the people that it’s actually hang out. We’re not going to war with these people. These are our customers. These are people we’re trying to help you know, and and if you think about it through Disneyland’s Craig just put on it of humanity humanity is a word that’s in common refrain right now. It’s the marketing landscape. So what does that really mean? Well it is

Are the trends are moving both from a social platform standpoint in from an AI standpoint is it’s making the technology better for people looking seeing sound more like people would you know themselves but even if you look at where the social media platforms are going now, it feels a little bit like the pendulum is swung. It’s swung so hard towards social media and Swinging back towards social networking which for those of us that you know live through this, you know from the beginning. I mean social networking was the beginning of this. This was where you would connect with people you knew in a deeper level through, you know, your internet accounts, whether that was you know, the original Myspace or LinkedIn or whatever you were connecting with people you knew people you had a real relationship with and deepening that relationship. We’re getting back in touch and then when Facebook ipoed and bought Instagram the course of a couple months get a hard switch into social media where the whole point became reaching people you’d never met before.

All right, and that social media era feels like it’s really sort of at the it’s at its peak and now we’re coming back towards building more meaningful relationships with people in these tools and which I think is congruent with what’s happening with AI right now.

Yeah, certainly interesting to see how that all intersects not only in society, but certainly pointly in the advertising space. So I appreciate you both going over that and as I promise before we started the show, we do have a mystery question.


I don’t know which of you want to answer the mystery question first.

Happy to take a swing for example, take a swing first.

Given that is the studio session the a100 studio session and we’ve had references to tuning in listening all that sort of stuff. What was the last song you listened to


That’s a great question. The last song I listened to is.

Not I’m not sure if this is the name but it’s girls are players, too.

Yes. Yeah, it’s on.

Yes. I don’t know who sings it plays. Exactly.

Yes. I

love that song. I also have five daughters. But but I love that song. Like I just love the vibe of it. I

think it’s like just such a like.

Badass like really good. So it’s called players players coil

array coil array right players. It’s

it’s kind of like on every third my rotation right now. I I get streaky like that.

Yeah, so for me what I actually listen to most often right now is similar to where you were going with this is what’s called kids pop, which is basically kids remaking modern pop songs, and I have a four year old and a six year old. So that’s in constant rotation. But this morning it’s actually relevant to this conversation. So this morning I was listening to lift off that Labyrinth which is a song that was originally written for Cadillac commercial really like launch lyric, you know, which isn’t an electronic vehicle and electric vehicle and they you know,

Worked with Labyrinth to write that song and and it’s in the in the commercial for it. He’s conducting an orchestra on this big red stage and they’re playing the song and it’s supposed to be a futuristic song and an electric orchestra. And the reason I was listening to it and paying attention to it is because it was one of those examples where I looked at it and I was like they were so close you think about our example with Leslie Adam Jr. Right? That’s what they did. It’s great. They same concept. Let’s make an original song It’s Gonna deliver the brand, you know, sort of essence through this song.

And then they’ve got this beautiful high energy electric orchestra, like Symphony playing, you know with this big Talent conducting them and they’re just on a stage like why didn’t you do it? Why didn’t you do it you were you had all the pieces just have the concert? Yeah, you know like just do it and then you got something to talk about and and fans will be talking about it and like but they didn’t do it. They spent all the money and they just made a commercial. It’s like, ah just

So anyways liftoff was actually the lesson I was listening

but I’m glad that it leads to a deeper conversation there and I can imagine sometimes their moments where you’re watching TV or consuming media and you’re like if they just do this then then we have it. Yeah, no almost every time seriously. I I

can’t not see any sort of brand activity today and think to myself like

Almost there. Yeah, you could have just done it a little bit differently and it would

have just

taken off, you know.

Yes, it’s

the double-edged sword of the of the business that you work in. So, yeah, well Craig Paul, I really appreciate you being on the show sharing your insights on where the industry is going what’s happening at your agency, and obviously what you’re listening to as well, so certainly appreciate the conversation.

Thanks for having this Jack be really appreciate it. Absolutely. Thank you.