POC 2.0

[00:01] I always like to remind people that point of care now includes the pathway to the patient as well as the pathway to the Healthcare professional our team’s certainly make sure that we are selling with. [00:13] Equanimity in both hands and saying look here’s how we reach the position to make sure that he or she is getting all the right information education tools etc to enable a good conversation with the patient. [00:22] Here are the tools and the things that we have in our toolbox to reach the patient whether it’s in the office outside the office at the pharmacy the pharmacy. [00:35] And welcome, this is Marc Iskowitz editor at large for MM+M. I want to welcome you all to this MM+M. Post Trend Talks podcast titled POC 2.0. [00:44] response by Health Monitor Network [00:46] and MM+M spring installment of trend talks which took place May 22nd in New York City [00:51] a group of A Level marketers From A companies large and small [00:55] gathered along with commercialization partners [00:57] to discuss some of this Industries foremost challenges in a closed door roundtable setting. [01:01] Speaking of challenges point of care marketing or POC for those in the know is evolving in his broadened to encompass Media in both patients and hcp facing settings. [01:10] Channel is expanding and diversifying. [01:12] and continues to draw attention from Pharma [01:15] but while consumers are getting smarter. [01:17] Who knew your neighbor knew what mrna meant? [01:19] The pace of new molecules and the use of genetic diagnostics testing are working in the other direction to make things more complex. [01:26] You’re with me to dive into the new and evolving PlayBook aka poc 2.0 is David Paragamian CEO of Health Monitor Network. [01:38] David welcome to the MM+M Podcast [01:40] thanks Mark it’s great to be here with you. [01:42] Likewise my friends always a pleasure. [01:45] At the Round Table which took place a couple weeks ago, so it’s still. [01:49] Fairly fresh in our memory we talked about how to unlock that tension. [01:53] Between the empowered and wiser consumer and the complex. [01:56] monoclonal antibody therapies that keep on you know coming out of the FDA [02:01] and we floated the idea with the group that to engage patients and Physicians along the treatment journey. [02:06] Marketers also must evolve the language and it’s the timing of messaging. [02:10] And everybody seemed to be you know largely in agreement of that. [02:13] So, let’s take a step back here how I wanted to start off by asking you. [02:17] How has point of care changed in definition? [02:20] or [02:20] You know it’s funny. We called this. [02:22] Point of care poc 2.0 and I I wonder if even that. [02:27] does it justice in terms of the [02:29] Just explosion forward to the future Inn in point of care. [02:34] The only metaphor I can think of is you know there was a time when? [02:37] the best [02:38] ships in the Navy were [02:39] sailing ships, then they became steam powered ships and then [02:43] I became nuclear power chips and I feel like point of care has entered that. [02:47] nuclear age if you will [02:49] that [02:50] we’ve moved from what people thought of not so long ago point of care was. [02:55] a screen in a doctor’s office maybe a magazine and a doctor’s office [02:59] and that was point of care. [03:00] And I think now. [03:01] point of care is acknowledged as [03:04] an omni channel conversation directed at both patients [03:07] and healthcare professionals [03:09] so there’s a [03:10] equal handedness of [03:11] education and information for both patients [03:14] and Physicians [03:15] across a variety of mediums. [03:18] some of which take place [03:19] In the office some of which take place. [03:21] Before the patient gets to the office some of which take place after the patient is left the office. [03:27] some of it is directed at the positions some of it’s directed at the patient, but it’s just this incredible proliferation of [03:33] ways to have this conversation and to reinforce important educational points and brand messages so [03:39] I can’t think of a more exciting time. [03:41] To be in the point of care industry. [03:43] absolutely and [03:44] you know where to go next you know we talked about you know how in our own survey research. We saw a preference. [03:52] amongst Pharma marketers toward [03:54] branded advertising [03:56] versus unbranded advertising and we kind of asked. [03:59] The group you know do you think that? [04:01] We’re satisfying consumers Desire for disease state education and messaging. [04:05] We’re talking in an overly branded way. [04:07] And I think you know people felt that it. [04:10] It depends you know on the timing you know and and the and the case like you said you know. [04:15] Whether you’re talking to a doctor you’re talking to a patient what time of the day is it? Where are we in the in the brand lifecycle or is it tied to a brand or is it a pre-launch? [04:24] so [04:25] that conversation beside as you pointed out the new definition of poc is an omni channel conversation. [04:31] That can encompass all those things in a range of mediums at different times. [04:35] So, what does a nominee channel Focus look like in point of care? Yeah? I’m certainly what our [04:39] Clients are finding is that. [04:42] To that omni channel point that. [04:44] It’s important to educate the health care professional. [04:49] At both the office and in moments when the physician is away from his or her office and so we’ve got a lot of clients that have. [04:56] Complicated story to tell and novel mechanism a monoclonal antibody and innovative mechanism. [05:02] and so [05:03] before [05:04] they approach the DTC angle. [05:06] We’re working with them to make sure that we’ve delivered. [05:09] In an omni channel way to physician, so we’re reaching them through social channels will reaching them in office or reaching them in both publications and digital. [05:18] So we’re reaching the physician to make sure we’re telling that educational message. [05:22] the right nomenclature the right vocabulary [05:25] the right understanding of a novel mechanism for example [05:28] before [05:29] we flip the switch and we’re talking to patients and as you said. [05:33] Patience have gotten so much smarter who knew that. [05:35] your neighbor in the driveway could tell you what a [05:38] mrna vaccine was [05:39] but [05:40] she can and so as patients have gotten smarter and demanding more education. You know we just need to make sure that we’ve got that delicate balancing act on the fulcrum of [05:49] Where addressing? [05:50] the needs of the [05:51] physician [05:52] and the needs of the patient I mean think about an exploding category like [05:56] You know weight loss with the glp ones so important to make sure that particularly Primary Care Physicians have the right. [06:03] Understanding of the mechanism the vocabulary the position the patient is going to come in with. [06:08] and [06:08] And then the activation with the patient etc, so we’re finding conversations with clients. [06:13] Much more strategic. [06:15] Much more robust. [06:16] and again very equal handed in terms of [06:19] what do we need to tell the Healthcare professional? [06:21] and what’s the message we need to deliver to the [06:23] to the patient with a [06:25] consistency of language [06:27] alright and and so [06:30] poc has gone nuclear as you put it earlier. You know explosion it’s all these different channels in a good way. Yes. [06:36] and [06:37] we saw in our own survey research that there was more use of. [06:42] video and non-linear TV to reach consumers [06:46] purses [06:47] you know the Old linear TV and and radio. [06:51] And these you know as everybody would agree. [06:55] channels offer opportunities to reach patients [06:59] at different points and in their Healthcare journey. [07:02] And we talked about you know the unique opportunities. [07:05] To use these platforms appropriately. [07:08] You know it all is built on data as I’m sure you would agree you know using data to more finely. [07:12] Segment your campaigns and the timing and Geographic regions and all that. [07:18] But then you know if there’s such a thing as the post nuclear. [07:22] phase maybe we’re entering that you know when you talk about AI [07:25] you know because that that’s a whole other conversation that I wanted to ask you about too in terms of what impact AI is having on media planning in this area. [07:33] I’d love to get your take on that yeah. No gosh you’ve set a lot of smart things Mark I’ll take a couple of them one. Is you know I think clearly you’re right. I I think of our businesses that. [07:42] We are in the data, storytelling business. [07:46] And I like to think first and foremost we are storytelling with data. So that the lead foot is we’re storytellers. We’re making sure that. [07:53] Again, whether it’s a health care professional or a patient that we are. [07:56] telling a compelling story but of course it’s always a [07:59] data-driven story a story with [08:02] great veracity that have is mlr. Reviewed and approved and all those things that we must be in our [08:08] the rigors of our Industries so we are absolutely storytelling with data. [08:12] and you know it’s interesting you mentioned AI because [08:15] certainly [08:16] our company and others [08:18] are I would argue in the early innings of experimenting with AI [08:23] and we look at it as company not as a [08:27] substitute for people I certainly as a CEO don’t think of AI as a [08:32] this is a great way for me to. [08:34] Reduce my staff I don’t think about it that way. [08:36] But we’re in in-house content creators. We have a large group of people devoted to the content creation the storytelling. [08:43] and so we look at AI as [08:45] what kind of an assist can it be to help facilitate? [08:49] to expedite whether it’s the [08:51] the narrative whether it’s the visuals that go with an narrative and so we are you know actively using and experimenting with [08:59] But I would argue it’s it’s early innings and again. It’s really [09:02] an enablement empowerment tool [09:05] and those are the words I constantly reinforce with our team to make sure that there is no. [09:10] misunderstanding [09:11] or misperception that you know AI is a [09:14] Threat I don’t view it that way. I don’t think it has to be I don’t think it’s a zero sum game. [09:18] But I also think it’s something that we can’t. [09:21] ignore [09:21] because it is transformative to our business and [09:24] as you say it may be the thing that helps propel US into the [09:27] Whatever is the post nuclear age and bye? [09:30] Sailing metaphor right I like that and you know it’s funny. I was just doing. [09:34] Another podcast the other day with another group and we were talking of course about. [09:38] AI everybody has a take on it and [09:41] they were talking about in the context of saving money. [09:44] And you know for clients which obviously is a noble goal and in this era of doing more with less. [09:49] But then it was reminded that. [09:51] in you know talking with one of the Pharma companies that embraced generative AI [09:55] they actually deliberately told their people because as you said there was a fear out there that it’s a threat that it’s going to replace. [10:01] that [10:02] we want you to think about this not in how you can use it to save money or to replace. [10:07] But how you can use it to augment? [10:08] And do something that you never thought was possible– and so they kind of took that deliberate approach and I think. [10:13] I think the as you said we’re in the early innings and I think we’re still there’s an appreciation of that power you know out there and I think people are just kind of getting getting their feet wet with it right. I totally agree. [10:23] so I did want to ask you because one of the [10:25] You know I think peeks of the conversation that we had a couple weeks ago was when we talked turned our attention to. [10:31] assess challenges and how that it can kind of disrupt [10:35] the care Continuum [10:37] you know drug and provider shortages as well as the post pandemic Surge and carried utilisation are to part to blame here. [10:43] One large farmer brand in fact ditched the familiar talk to your doctor. [10:48] Call To Action and pivoted the last line of its TV spots to check your cost and coverage. [10:53] before talking to a Healthcare provider [10:55] and [10:56] when we did check on where marketers were with their parent marketing budgets and our latest Healthcare marketers trend survey. [11:03] Slightly over a third so that the boosted their parent marketing budget last year. [11:08] Behind pharmacists actually 38% seems to be kind of a lot of attention being paid to pharmacist maybe that’s also part of the access you know issue. [11:16] But what you know we put the question out to the group is industry devoting enough attention to access issues and where the implications. [11:22] For DTC messaging and I think again there was. [11:25] consensus in general that [11:27] it is time to make the call To Action more nuanced. [11:30] and to [11:31] bring in you know access into the call To Action and want to give you a chance to kind of weigh in a little bit more on that absolutely and I think. [11:38] pulling the thread from the [11:40] Trend talks conversation we had just a week ago. [11:44] You’re right. I think about in my own career having LED [11:47] creative agencies for some of the holding companies [11:51] the conversation about access was [11:53] oftentimes the very last. [11:56] part of the conversation with the client after we got [11:58] all the strategy right and the branding right and the big campaign idea and here’s how it’s going to pull through the Salesforce and [12:04] you know oh by away. Oh the mint as the Old by the way at the end of the meal was okay now. Let’s talk about the access issues. [12:11] and I [12:12] What I’m finding now with some of our clients is that? [12:15] in our DTC [12:18] offering [12:19] of [12:20] for example digital exam room screens, where we [12:23] Provide patient education in an exam on a screen and it’s an opportunity then for a client to serve up a branded advertisement consistent with that educational message. [12:32] We’ve got clients that say hey I don’t want to deliver. [12:35] Branded advertising message I wanted to deliver a pay or message. [12:39] Let’s deliver a message about affordability a QR code that they can. [12:44] Click through and link to co-pay cards and those sorts of things so I think that. [12:49] Pharma marketers are paying more attention. [12:52] And even as I said in some examples that we have right now with some clients where. [12:56] The most salient thing that they want to offer at that immediate moment in the exam room when the physician in the patient are talking about the right. [13:04] Therapy and messaging is being delivered. [13:07] On a tactic like ours. [13:08] that the message that they want delivered is a [13:11] Is a pair message a value message a co-pay message as opposed to simply a reinforcements of a brand add message? It’s not everyone. [13:18] But it’s definitely an n larger than one. [13:21] so I do see it as a [13:22] growing trend [13:24] in broadcast as well as in a channel like care. [13:27] Yeah, great, you know this is perhaps a philosophical question but is an access measure message about a brand. [13:34] Still not a branded message. I don’t know maybe. [13:37] it’s a semantics but [13:38] It is but it’s a specific type of message and it is very much a to your point. It’s a call to actually I mean it’s a strong call To Action because you’re making sure you overcome what could be a potential obstacle. [13:48] To having a patient get the therapy. [13:50] or ultimately comply with a chronic therapy that they [13:53] decide they can’t afford for some reason so you know I do think it is in the [13:57] greater service of [13:58] patient outcomes [14:00] Because it’s the speed bump and it’s the elephant in the room that. [14:03] If we don’t get it right. [14:05] the patient doesn’t get the therapy or they don’t stay on therapy and [14:09] then [14:09] all the effort is lost because the patient’s not getting the benefit for the pharmacologic agent that they need. [14:15] You this fascinating that everybody agrees at how important that is. [14:18] And yet, I think it’s it’s it’s interesting when you look at how. [14:22] Companies are budgeting for it. You know this that’s not reflected and the budgeting. [14:25] But remains you know very important indeed. [14:29] And are you seeing a lot of patience a lot of not a lot of your clients wanting to include that access message messaging still these days. [14:36] well, yeah, it’s interesting you you quoted from your [14:39] Mm. And M survey that you know about a third of the marketers said that their payer budget was increasing and [14:45] I’d say that resonates for me. I’d say that is it is about a third of our clients that as they talked about. [14:51] DTC advertising the hcp portion of our platform advertising [14:55] that [14:56] about a third- of them are [14:58] asking about how we include. [15:00] Pay or messages value messages. [15:03] access to co-pay cars so sorts of things which is definitely something that [15:07] four or five years ago wasn’t nearly as prevalent. [15:09] Okay great yeah, that’s that’s a sizeable proportion of your clients. [15:13] okay so [15:15] in terms of leveraging point of care [15:18] that as part of their overall omni channel approach. [15:20] Wanted to ask you next what your top you points of advice are for people out there who are wondering how to do that you mentioned earlier. That is really exploded in there’s so many choices now. It’s no longer just the wall boards. [15:33] In the doctors offices or you know the little countertop display in the pharmacy Office which you know I remember those days. You know when I first started. [15:41] writing about this channel that that’s what people thought of point of care as you know is that sort of very sort of Limited [15:47] Slice of the media world but that can kind of be bouldering too to people so what are what are your best? [15:52] Low hanging fruit advice from marketers who are looking to Leverage this channel. [15:56] As part of their overall approach. [15:57] sure, I mean you know a couple of things I think First [16:00] there are people that we always like to remind them of [16:04] How impactful point of care as a category is? [16:07] And that’s not about us as a provider. [16:10] It’s about the category. There’s a wonderful study that it. [16:14] Is on the point of care marketing Association website that’s a viva Crossing study. [16:19] that takes a look at [16:20] a couple of [16:21] biologic products and the marketing mix analysis that was done by viva cross-x [16:26] that showed [16:27] attribution of [16:28] these are the chunks of where the marketing budget went x percent to broadcast. [16:33] Why percent to print? [16:34] Z percent to digital banner ads etc and of the spending on the brands. [16:40] Two percent of the spending was point of care. [16:42] and then when they did the [16:45] Nrx attribution, how did that spending in the marketing mix modelling drive? [16:49] and our x’s [16:51] that the point of care 2% slice of the marketing spend delivered 17% [16:56] of the nrx [16:58] so [16:59] I always view that and I always lead with that story with all of our perspective clients to say look point of care as a category. [17:05] Punches above it’s weight class. [17:07] It is absolutely an important critical part of the marketing budget it shouldn’t be the last thing that people think about. [17:13] It is an integral part of an omni channel campaign that includes. [17:17] Broadcast and digital and all those other things so I think number one we talked about the power of point of care and I would punches above its weight class. [17:24] And then I think secondly to your point. [17:26] I think [17:27] while there has been a tremendous proliferation of point of care products. [17:32] And so there is no one rate to say here’s the right place to start or the wrong place to start. [17:36] I always like to remind people that. [17:38] point of care now includes the pathway to the patient as well as the pathway to the health care professional and so [17:45] our teams certainly make sure that we are selling with. [17:48] Equanimity in both hands and saying look here’s how we reach the position to make sure that he or she is getting. [17:53] All the right information education tools etc to enable a good conversation with the patient. [17:58] Here are the tools and the things that we have in our toolbox. [18:01] To reach the patient whether it’s in the office outside the office at the pharmacy. [18:05] And so we’re having that. [18:07] two-handed conversations so [18:09] You know again we? [18:10] We sell the category and then we sell. [18:12] In some ways, we’re still selling the category before we even talk about ourselves because we’re talking about. [18:16] reaching the patient and the doctor [18:18] to really make sure that it’s you know that that kind of a surround sound omni channel approach. [18:23] and I think if [18:24] if anyone is new to the category or thinking about their business that way. [18:28] I think that’s the right place to start and I think that does the best service to. [18:31] Again the category and you know Pharma brands. [18:36] Sure given the fact that the channel has proliferated. [18:40] And it’s no longer you know thought of in the Narrow way at once was how do you then? [18:45] identify [18:46] or classify poc that shows up you know in broadcast or some of these other you know Media [18:53] venues is it just [18:55] it’s it’s poc because [18:57] it’s enabling as you said that good you know patience to have that good conversation with the doctor and doctors to have that could conversation with the patient. [19:03] It’s more of an educational type of a message. How do you identify? Oh, that’s poc. Which is showing up in a different venue. [19:09] yeah, you’re bringing up a great point Mark write because [19:12] What we also find is that? [19:15] traditional poc [19:18] a digital exam room screen or something delivered in office [19:21] very often comes from the brand managers Media budget. [19:25] but for example [19:27] hcp education that is delivered digitally the health care professionals in their inbox. [19:32] Or on their laptop. [19:34] Often times will come from a brand manager’s. [19:37] non-personal promotion budget which is a different budget than the media but same brand manager same brand [19:42] same brand budget [19:44] excuse me but [19:45] You know different. [19:46] different budgets and so I think [19:49] there is that [19:50] complexity if you will of how one parses this. [19:54] I think it’s what makes us now a very strategic channel and a very strategic conversation again. This is not a conversation about a digital exam room screen. [20:03] That’s a very unique pointed conversation. I think this is a conversation about what’s in the best interest of the brand. [20:09] How do we reach healthcare professionals? How do we reach the right targeted patients? [20:13] And and therefore it becomes. [20:15] A broader conversation and it often times as I said encompasses. [20:19] two different budget streams [20:21] I guess in argument. Maybe that’s a little more complex, but I think it’s appropriate because poc has now. [20:27] expanded [20:28] so that the impact that it has on a business delivering that. [20:32] Nrx type of return that I gave in that example. [20:35] It warrants that kind of budgeting it warrants that kind of conversation. [20:38] So okay, so that was going to be the next question is does it come out of the hcp or the consumer budget? [20:43] It’s a complex you know. [20:45] Parsing that is complex. [20:47] It comes out of both basically is the short answer my perspective yes, yeah okay one final question this is kind of an overall question for you. Dave you know we saw point of care was just 2.2% of the marketing budget. [20:59] In our trend survey, but it’s a big increase last year. [21:03] From 42% in 2022 to 55% in 2023 in terms of people who are saying they’re increasing. [21:09] their point of care budgets [21:11] and as we said it’s defined to encompass both media and both HTTP in patient settings, but you know. [21:18] Wanted to ask you from a bigger picture. [21:20] Are we capitalising on the white space before diagnosis enough? [21:25] as marketers [21:26] You know where does the patient want to consume this information and then we talk about all those different times at the hcp office with. [21:32] The wall boards or is it is it at home is it in the car in the carpool line? So what I wanted to get at is. [21:38] Where are the untapped you know places and settings and times and moments? [21:42] That you you want to. [21:44] Believe marketers with as hey consider this this is something I’ve seen in my experience that we may be neglecting. [21:49] Yeah, sure and then the cheeky answer. Obviously mark is you know all of your love and I’ll be a little less. [21:55] Cheeky you know again. I think that. [21:59] one of the neat things about [22:01] appointed care offering is that [22:03] Much like shop or marketing for a consumer packaged goods. We are right there at the shelf if you will to use the metaphor right so right at that moment when the consumer is at the shelf in the Kroger deciding to pick Crest or Colgate [22:14] And that the in-store marketing happens, that’s in now the guest to some of the core. [22:19] elements of point of care marketing in the exam room [22:22] right at that moment where the physician and the patient are talking about. [22:25] diagnosis treatment [22:27] Let’s get concordance around a treatment plan and the therapy we’ve chosen and what it means. [22:31] So clearly point of care lives there. [22:34] But to your point. [22:36] We were making sure that we have conversations with our clients to say. [22:39] We’ve brought point of care way upstream. [22:42] Because we want to make sure that we’re educating both that hcp. [22:45] and the patient before they get [22:48] to the office, so we’ve done a number of things in terms of [22:51] targeted patient acquisition and targeting to get the right information and the hands of the right patient to activate them into the doctor’s office so I think. [23:00] you know clearly we want to be with them earlier in the journey not just [23:04] To use my metaphor at the shelf. [23:06] We’re their at the shelf where I love being the exam room company. I love that but we want to get to them sooner. [23:12] In that journey. [23:14] Just Like A Procter & Gamble doesn’t wait to make the case for Crest just at the shelf they’ve made it long before that. [23:20] And we do the same here and I think that’s why. [23:22] The industry of point of care and I want to talk about my own company. I’ll talk about the industry. [23:27] That’s why I think the industry of point of care is enjoying this explosion of growth. [23:31] Focus and spending from Pharma companies [23:33] because they’re seeing the value that we can provide. [23:36] starting early in the patient journey [23:38] delivering all the way through right to that Moment of Truth in the doctor’s office. [23:43] and [23:44] you know the statistics. [23:46] And the data from that Vivo across the marketing mix study. [23:49] Bears out, you know that whether it. [23:51] It’s in that example the 2% of the spend 17% of the nrx is. [23:55] We have many many clients that have done their own. [23:57] custom [23:58] studies that are delivering [24:01] similar results about punching above the weight class so I think as I said at the outset. [24:05] super excited time [24:07] you know to be part of the point of care. [24:10] channel as part of the Healthcare [24:11] communications business [24:13] great great, we’ll thank you for helping to explain. [24:17] how point of care [24:18] Not only has you know by definition proliferated. [24:21] But giving some solid advice from marketers to optimise. [24:24] Their point of care use and that overall marketing mix. [24:28] As you said, it’s a great opportunity to optimise patients during the journey perhaps before they get to the proverbial shelf moments or the you know the doctor’s office. [24:37] And you gave people some real you know things to think about their so thank you Dave really a pleasure Mark always great to chat with you. Thank you so much. [24:45] absolutely [24:46] anyone who has any questions you can check out that study on the point of care marketing Association website. [24:52] on channel attribution [24:54] and I’m sure David would be happy to run you know an AB test for you as well if you would like. [24:59] and you can find out more about them at health monitor network.com [25:04] that was a day power gaming. [25:05] To eyo of health monitor network, it was a great conversation come back for another one. [25:09] All right this has been Marcus goo, it’s editor at large for mmm. We’ll see you next time.