David Traylor, managing partner and cofounder of Golden Eagle Partners, discusses the state of cannabis policy — and why he thinks a cannabis rescheduling may be imminent. In her Policy Update, Lecia Bushak discusses Americans’ anxiety over AI in healthcare and what it means for policymakers. Plus, Jack O’Brien provides takeaways from PHM’s two-day HealthFront and we look at whether “420” marketing has lost its mystique.

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Hey, it’s Marc… It’s been nearly 2 decades since California became the 1st state to legalize medical cannabis in 1996. And more than 10 years since Washington and Colorado were the first states to approve adult sales of MJ for recreational use.  Despite sweeping legalization in states across the U.S., though, the cannabis industry continues to face some strong headwinds. For one, cannabis is still classified as a Schedule I controlled substance.  And cannabis trafficking, a term which refers to the buying or selling of controlled substances, still violates federal law. As such, cannabis companies have had to grapple with a kind of criminal status hanging over their heads. Growers and other medical marijuana business types that touch the plant and its products along the supply chain pay higher tax rates than businesses in other areas. They have trouble operating in multiple states and must take cash for their transactions because they can’t access the banking system like other sectors.  Many of the normal channels for sales, like Amazon, and marketing tactics, such as Facebook ads, are restricted. With many people regarding the substances as taboo, misinformation has festered, and the Black market has become a powerful competitive force.  But a turnabout may be in the works. The federal government is considering rescheduling marijuana to reflect its medicinal value and low potential for abuse. Our guest this week, David Traylor of cannabis-focused investment bank Golden Eagle Partners, believes there’s a pretty good chance of that happening before the upcoming presidential election – a 41% chance, to be exact. As we approach another 420 – regarded as a holiday around MJ culture – is the cannabis industry closer to finally shedding its outlaw baggage? Our 420 coverage kicks off with today’s int’w with David Traylor, managing partner and co-founder of Golden Eagle Partners, to discuss the state of cannabis policy; and continues this week with more analysis on the state of 420 marketing. And Lecia’s here with her own health policy update… Hey Marc, today I’ll talk about a new report that shows almost 80% of Americans want the federal government to implement stricter AI regulations – and I’ll give a brief update on where AI regulation in healthcare currently stands. And Jack, what else is trending in healthcare this week? This week, we’re talking about the 2024 PHM HealthFront and whether 420 has lost its mystique. David it’s wonderful to have you on the show for those in our audience that may be unfamiliar with you and your organization. Can you give us kind of a high level overview of golden eagle partners and what you all are up to? Yeah. Thanks Jack. Thanks for having us. I can’t believe it’s already cute too. It’s pretty crazy. But moves along pretty quick. It is Golden Eagle Partners is a firm. I founded in 2012. Essentially and we’ve been in cannabis now for over 10 years and one thing to start off with Jack when we talk about canvas. I’m a biochemist by background I can get a little into that but we believe cannabis and cannabis is the genus as the amazing plants. So when you’re talking about the genius when we say can of us we’re referring to like we like to say marijuana’s THC Plus. And how is THC minus we believe that it’s easiest to break down. The nomenclature is always been problematic in this industry. I mean, some people say cannabinoids and other say it can happen with so but our thought is instead of marijuana and cannabis and cannabis marijuana. You know, we like to look at the whole thing is THC plus is you know Delta 9 mainly so you’re talking msos and limited partners out of Canada msos are multi-state operators here in the US and then tasty minus could be also known as you know, flavonoids terpenes. The plant hasn’t allowed amazing molecules, but essentially Golden Eagle Partners, we’ve been doing it for over 10 years in North America for over eight years internationally. We’ve had cannabis clients with operations on six to seven continents, but most importantly Jack is if we’ve been lucky in the fact that I just start my career in the late 80s in biotech as I mentioned. I have a degree in Biochemistry one molecular biology. Luckily. I’ve been named in three us patents two in Ohio processing from my work in the early 90s doing recombinant protein production and then work for a total of 15 years in operational roles in biotech companies based in Boulder Berlin Germany and Silicon Valley and so we were well placed and that regard Jack because again, we’re lucky because we’re also been doing psychedelics for three years with companies like for over three years and if you look at both these sectors and we can just stick with cannabis. Today, but both these sectors are moving more towards life science and biotech because we need whether it’s adult use or medical whether it’s Germany or the us or Canada wherever we need to find out what these amazing molecules do and don’t do and we need to apply life science Concepts to do that. And I want to pick up the conversation there and specifically focusing on the US because you talked about obviously being found in 2012. We’ve seen a number of changes as it relates to the Cannabis conversation really this kind of push towards legalization and I would say a societal and narrative where people have embraced the potential for cannabis to be used whether it’s medicinally or for recreational use from your perspective. What have been the biggest changes over the past decade both good and bad. Yeah, that’s a good question. Well again, you know, this is multifaceted too Jack because when we’re talking cannabis you have you know THC plus which is the regulated what we love people call marijuana market and then you have the THC minus which is the hemp Market which you know, I have the 2018 farm bill which is essentially a lot of people believe legalized Delta 9 and a lot of other cannabinoids so that you know, 2018 farm bill is a big deal. Obviously November 2012 when Colorado Washington voters legalized adult use really kick things off here in the US. So that was certainly a seminal moment. If you want to go all the way back to 1996. That’s when really California legalized medical But you know things didn’t really get going with a crazy fervent pitch until Washington, Colorado legalized and then Colorado was on the first of the form Forefront January 1 2014 just over 10 years ago is when Colorado First adult use sales happen, right? So and it’s been interesting that you know, the number of states have come on. I don’t even know really follow it anymore frankly Jack, but I know that you know, it’s probably I think two thirds or seven 75% of the US population resides in the state that has some form of legalization so and then the farm bill and then certainly I guess we’re waiting now to find out what happened what happens with rescheduling because there is something called 280 which we can get into which is not us tax code, which is has had significant ramifications on the THC Plus or the marijuana Market. And I am curious about that and it’s so interesting to hear you say that something like the legalization on the state level isn’t really where you’re even paying attention anymore because it’s gone to that larger conversation what happens at the federal level one ask you about that? Because you know, I live here in New York and he dispensary that I go into I always have to be reminded like oh you got to bring cash because you can’t they can’t interface with banks in the same way and that has been able to you know, limit the potential for these organizations. Can you get into that IRS angle that you were talking about earlier and kind of feel our audience and for those who may not be familiar? Sure. Well the other thing interesting too that you know, we’ve talked on cannabis or in 40 times around the us but also in in Europe or even in Dubai actually, so I’ve been talked on campus in Dubai Frankfort Berlin Grand Cayman. Also Davos during the world economic Forum in 2020. The reason why I bring that up is that you know, I luckily got quoted enrolling Stone when I was in Davos at that time and one of the quotes I had was getting back to your thing on the states. I think one of the other Seminole moments was when we saw Utah and Oklahoma turned to medical and the amazing thing is back. Then at that time. We also looked at the Pew research numbers on on Church attendance per capita. And at least at that time Utah was number one and Oklahoma was number seven to us. That was all so a seminal moment when you started seeing some of these conservative States roll over but you know, the interesting thing is let’s go back to the early 1980s if anybody. On the audio’s round. They remember Nancy Reagan and the just say no to drugs campaign and all that and there was a drug dealer. I believe he was Wisconsin interestingly enough, not Miami. Wisconsin Minnesota, and he was busted I believe from methamphetamine and he got away with a lot of the money he made in his drug trade by, you know, doing some fancy tax work. So at that time in the early eighties, The Congress the US Congress then passed an IRS tax code called 280e which doesn’t allow you to take the typical tax deductions if you work with a scheduled water scheduled to compound. So that was that’s been the promulgated and that’s always been a thorn in the side for companies that are planting with Delta 9 THC because they’re regulated as a result. They can’t take the normal tax exemptions, like interest expense they you know and all so they’re cogs numbers get pretty wonky. And as a result the applied tax rate a lot of these companies that are planted touching in the UI can be up to you know, 890% or even higher. So a lot of people believe the industry is just minting money, but actually the if you really look at the marchants are pretty slim so that’s always been a big headwind. The other big head one in the industry is a fact that you know, you can’t get back to the States issue. You can’t have an Amazon or or you know a hub and spoke system in the US or a FedEx model because you have to replicate each operation you established in each state if you’re a multi-state operator you have spent money to build that and you can’t have On the economies of scale that a lot of other Industries do so you have two made those are two major headwinds and that’s why we rescheduling is important that if we can get rescheduling to happen right now, it’s schedule one and if they can reschedule to schedule the schedule 3 then you know, something might happen now to get a long-winded answer this whole thing Jack. The one thing that was interesting. We look back last when they HHS the Health and Human Services Agency came out and leaked a letter that they were trying to recommend the da reschedule the schedule 3. There’s a number of things we did a podcast with benzing up at all. We also did the my firmed in analysis on look back on how many compounds were scheduled to rescheduled over the last five years going into 2018 and there were 41 compounds. The interesting thing about that Jack is it if we looked at really win those announcements happened on these scheduling from the DA they have been predominantly in Q2 and Q4. And if you think about it, you know q1. It’s not going to really happen because we got a new year and people getting into the new year and then Q3 is you know, september August summer time. So the interesting thing is we we came out using that analysis. And now that we are in Q2 our analysis point to the fact that if it’s going to happen at all this year before the election the highest probability of rescheduling by the da to schedule three would be in Q2 of this year and that came out to be a 41% probability which was the highest now the other point that all that data that we did I think is important is the fact that de never did put anything on schedule 3 over those last five years of the 41 compounds, but the one last thing that we have a real issue with this is the fact that trying to apply any logic to any logical. System just does not make much sense to us. And the reason why we say that is if you really look at the 500 and 547 or over 500 compounds back in August that were scheduled one, two, three, four five by the de A the Cannabis was scheduled one and cannabis is not again. It’s a genius. It’s not a compound everything else of the 540 plus molecules were compounds. They weren’t like the genus of a plant. So, you know, I think that the first of all the da needs to get their nomenclature correct and consistent and just take cannabis off scheduling all together. I mean, they have THC or tetrahydrocannabinol molecules as schedule one too. So that’s I guess our answer is probably cute too. But you know, frankly personally thinking it may not even happen before the election so Yeah, it’s anyone’s guess what’s going to happen in a very contentious election year giving how divided things are on Capitol Hill. I wanted to go back to something you brought up that you were talking about. Obviously the impact of the war on drugs and terms of how you know Americans writ large have viewed drugs certainly as it relates to marijuana. I’m curious now that we’re seeing this kind of versioning legal market and there are Brands there are companies that are trying to get out there and say that hey, you know, we want to be playing in the same way that those in our audience represent Pharma and biotech companies you talked about earlier need to take a life science is to cannabis as it relates to the marketing and advertising angle. What have you seen in terms of maybe good and bad in terms of how people are going to market with the source stuff. Is it effective because there is like you said Decades of people just hearing like just say no and it’s hard to kind of get them over that hurdle know there could be a medicinal or recreational purpose here. API it well marketing is always been tough because a lot of the normal channels are not are not allowed like, you know, you certainly can’t sell certain products on Amazon and certainly Facebook advertising has been restricted. And then you get really to one of the biggest issues too is just the stigma right? There’s so much misinformation and misperceptions in this industry and have been for so long and it’s special to also on the Psychedelic side, right? You have a lot of people look at these molecules like, oh it’s all taboo. But again, the one thing that we’re seeing in the interesting thing for example, the marketing and the market, you know, we’re seeing a lot of the older octogenarians Etc starting adopting, you know, all these molecules. For example, CBN cannabinol is a molecule that’s commonly used for sleep. We have actually client out of Australia this trying to run a pivotal trial. For CBD in insomnia or sleep right? So that’s what we’re trying to do. Frankly. Jack is work with companies. You know again, we’re investment bankers trying to find really good companies. That are you know, really good have a good business model really good team and that need really good data that also helped establish Another Brick in the Wall for the stigma and try to find them good Capital. But again, you know, the the Cannabis industry writ large whether you’re talking kg Plus or THC minus there’s a lot of problems with it because we mentioned 280e there’s all the stigma a lot of the head regular Tori over-regulation headwinds, whether it’s in Australia us or Europe. It’s just it’s not never been easy and I’m curious when we were talking before we agreed to this podcast. I’d mention that I’m based here in New York and I’ve lived in Massachusetts previously every state that I’ve lived in or I’ve been to you see a different approach to at least the recreational legalized cannabis market and I’ve got to imagine two that that hamper some sort of efforts for people where it’s like, oh, well they do this in Colorado as they post the this in Michigan New Jersey stuff like that. What do you make that kind of Patchwork approach? I can’t imagine that makes things any easier for you and your peers in the industry. Well, we’re pretty lucky because we can go across, you know, state lines with our services because we’re investment bankers. And by the way, we’re all so registered rose with finra. Uh, but you know, for example, my brother is a CEO of a testing lab and in Colorado, so it’s hard for him to if he wants to go into other states. He has to replicate that whole model as I mentioned before but then you know, another another big headwind for this industry is you know, as a result of the overall regulation and the higher tax base whether we’re talking Federal under 280 or a lot of times under States like here in Colorado, you know dull used his taxed at a higher rate than Medical. That presents a great opportunity for the Legacy Market or the black market or the illicit Market different people want to call it different things. But as you mentioned, you know, New York and California frankly. It’s a shit show. It’s tough to compete, you know, and just think about it. I mean you have people their legacy people that have been doing you know things in growing in California and motivate him to come under a regulated scheme where they’re going to make less money and they have more headaches. I mean You know, we kind of joke of the fact that you know in cannabis, it’s not Adam Smith invisible hand. It’s Adam Smith invisible fist, right? Because it’s just there’s we’re not allowed to let normal capitalistic Tendencies and things like supply for example, supply and demand is always been really wonky like for an example in New York or at least Colorado before things really opened up that you know, if you had a too much coming to the market all of a sudden the price is dropped precipitously because if you have too much in Colorado, you couldn’t like ship it to somewhere else, right? But you know New York’s got supposedly, you know biomass coming in from a lot of other different sources, right? It’s crazy. It’s so interesting to hear you talk about because that’s an argument that I’ve heard. A lot of people make is like well, you can’t legalize it because the black market still going to be there and if you try and tax it too much then they’re just going to come in with a lower price and it’s like well there has to be some sort of happy medium. I suppose in terms of being able to drive out that illicit Market not understanding that it’s not going to fully go away but also saying that you know, we’re going to have a uniform understandable regulated infrastructure and it feels like you know having lived here in New York the past three years and having come from Massachusetts where they legalize and then it took them two years to actually set up the infrastructure. It is a slow moving process. I can imagine that can hamper some sort of enthusiasm or momentum that you may have on the side of potential consumers. Oh absolutely. Well, I mean, that’s one of the thing I was missing somebody when we’re lucky enough to be in Davos. It and I came up with three concepts that you know, we learned in the US that may or may not be applicable. And again, this is just over four years ago, but one of them is the geography is almost always more often than not in cannabis roll out much slower than people expect them to and that just has recently happened in Germany, you know Germany just finally Legalized, you know initial, you know incremental adult use like legislation that’s going into effect today actually, but it’s it’s not what they were hoping for. I wasn’t full adult legalization and certainly you see something going on and Switzerland with the week cares program, which is very quite interesting there. Actually now opening up direct the Canton and Zurich I think is now going to have a number of cities and towns that are selling a Dell use all those limited and the patient population but it is interesting getting back to the life science aspect to this because the federal Office of Public Health and Switzerland’s monitored monitoring this whole program. It’s in balls Zurich. It’s opening a piecemeal across the country but also the international narcotics control boards all so monitoring what’s going on that’s important because you know, we have a thing called the single convention in 1961 passed by the UN and what that was meant to do is is kind of unify. All these kind of anti-drug laws on narcotics and morphine and amphetamines and cannabis and all this stuff. And so the international narcotics control board is kind of I guess the business end of all that and hopefully, you know, the new end again is has had some headwinds into this whole thing of adoption internationally, but you know, that’s the way we see it that this Switzerland program is very interesting because we can provide really good data and all these patients are being monitored over two three, four five years. I think that’s the kind of information we need for adoption because that allows us to compete more effectively against the listed or the legacy of Black Market David. I’ve really appreciate you being on the show and being able to share, you know, all these Decades of experience that you’ve had in the space why I didn’t want to have this kind of be a loaded question and it but I am curious just because we’ve talked about obviously where the opportunities lie, but where there are really significant headwinds both on the business side the regulatory side the stigmatization angle that you spoke about earlier. What is your sense for the future? Are you optimistic about where the industry is going? Are you pessimistic because there are still these roadblocks ahead. What’s your what’s your sense on the forward? Yeah, that’s a good. Question Jack, I mean one of the things I guess if we can to answer that one is I think certainly the science aspect of this is pretty interesting. I guess it helps support adoption. I think for example, we’re the lead sponsor of a thing called can Med coming up? In Florida in mid-may and like for example, Florida has taken some recent action again, you know looking to do Outlaw a number of these states. Hhc which actual Hydro cannabinol and it was a close cousin of THC Delta 9. And then we have Delta Hydro Canal 8, which is again, very similar and molecular structures Delta 9 and you know, they’ve been really arbitrarily outlawed without, you know, we don’t have really have very good data yet all the things published out of that. But then the other thing is, you know, as we said it’s been a long Long hard Road up to this point and you know as a result, you know, Matt Docker to myself who’s over here at Golden Eagle Partners last year established in April our first annual longevity award for you know, people that have been able to survive in the business and we’re going to actually a plug on that. We’re going to announce that again on for our second award and 420 can’t or gold needle Partners longevity award, but I think you know, we’ve we’ve been able to you know, stay in at this long and I think you know, a lot of people in the Cannabis industry essentially say, you know, we burned our boats long time ago right reference to the old Mariner. I think it from Spanish Mariner. And I think so. Yeah, we’re in it to win it. The one thing that we’ve been very lucky though. One last thing to close on Jack is Yeah, I think this year depending on what happens or doesn’t happen with rescheduling. It’s still think there’s a lot in international markets opening up science is continuing to be a big part of this we have hemp base can happen with now coming on line. So we need science to really determine what what those do and you know, a lot of our competition frankly if you’re talking like counting or counter Fitzgerald big investment Banks Roth Capital much larger than us have exited cannabis. In the last 12 months because they’ve been we’re beholden to adult use in the US and again, we’ve we right now have or recently had clients in Germany, Australia Canada us and we’re talking to a group in the Lithuania now another group in Germany. So we’ve been Diversified geographically, and I think as long as we maintain that I think we can maintain to grow and hopefully continue to build with with the industry. It sounds like there’s just a lot of exciting stuff both for your organization and for the industry at large too, so it’ll be interesting to continue watching how things unfold here, but I really appreciated David being able to talk about the history where things stand where things are going for this 420 episode. I know it’s always beneficial to our audience to get a check in on where things are in the Cannabis front know appreciate Jack know it’s nice to meet you and thanks everybody for joining in and listening in hopefully you’ve learned a few things because that’s that’s the thing cannabis is a fast moving sector. We’re always learning to absolutely. Thank you David. Thank you. Nearly 80% of Americans believe the federal government should implement stricter AI regulations, according to a new report out of Authority Hacker. The survey, which examined 2,000 people, sought to pinpoint how they’re feeling about the changing AI landscape across a variety of sectors, including healthcare. The majority of people surveyed, or 82%, said privacy was a major concern and were worried about the use of personal data in training AI systems. The survey dubbed this feeling of unease “AI Anxiety.” Last year, President Joe Biden released an executive order that was the first to request the development of initial guidelines around what is largely a Wild West of AI. That order requires the Department of Health and Human Services to develop responsible AI standards in the next few years. It also requires companies to notify the federal government if they’re creating an AI model that involves national security or a public health risk. The HHS will need to create an AI regulatory unit that’s designed to monitor emerging healthcare AI tools and review them before they hit the market. Plus, in March, the Biden administration unveiled more AI rules around new technology that could impact the public’s safety – including healthcare AI tools that could diagnose patients or do medical administrative tasks. In particular, Vice President Kamala Harris highlighted the Department of Veterans Affairs or VA, which is already testing AI in its medical centers. She noted that if the VA wants to use AI in its hospitals to diagnose patients – it would QUOTE “first have to demonstrate that AI does not produce racially biased diagnoses.” The Authority Hacker report noted that QUOTE “In conclusion, research shows that the general population wants strict, comprehensive and globally coordinated AI regulations. Policymakers must address these concerns and create frameworks that ensure safety, privacy and ethics while allowing innovation.” I’m Lecia Bushak, Senior Reporter at MM+M. and is the part of the broadcast Memorial to tell us what’s training on Healthcare social media. Hey Jack. Hey Mark, so last week I had the pleasure of going to the phm health front event. It’s a two-day conference in lower Manhattan, and it featured keynote addresses from Brooke Shields and Gabrielle Union. Wade and appearances from members of large tech companies like meta Reddit there was a national women’s soccer league player there along with Sasha Colby who’s the winner of season 15 of RuPaul’s Drag Race really just kind of a Confluence of all that we cover in health media. It was very interesting to hear all these different viewpoints and stuff and I want to just kind of highlight some of the the biggest takeaways that I saw kind of lose to actually what a bit of our episode is about. There was a lot of conversation obviously about the future of AI and generative Ai and and whether or not that data and that technology is going to be able to sustain itself going forward what’s actually gonna mean for the medical marketing community and the content creation portion of the industry. There was a lot of talk about representation across all sorts of different areas and both shields in Gabrielle Union Wade’s kenos they talked about this idea of the Unseen as in which I know Lesha you’ve covered before when it comes to women in healthcare specialty aging women. Not being marketed to not having their concerns necessarily heard by their doctors and hcps and Gabriel Ian Wade actually had a really interesting point where she kind of called out the marketing Community to do better and to lean in and to be able to use their technology and Innovation and insights for these audiences to reach them more effectively. Another thing that was talked about a lot is the future of podcasting there was I think that’s sort of appreciated this they have the folks from iheartmedia who were talking about that as more people get off of social media. They lean into podcasting and then you had people that were from the social media platform saying no so social media is here and it’s a useful tool and podcasting is not going to us, but there seem to be a lot of opportunities there in terms of being able to mark it and reach more people won. The last points. I want to bring up and then I want to bring both election in the conversation here is that Omi Channel continues to get a lot of attention, but there seems to be a lot more interest or at least there was conversation there around the future. Of influencers both big and small along with the role that even print media as it starts to dive more into the digital realm, which I think we’re part of that too has in terms of advertising possibility. So a lot of different stuff that was that was thrown around there a lot of stuff that we cover on a day-to-day basis, but want to bring you both in case any of that was ringing true within your coverage or in the middle of agency 100 Seasons. We’re talking to a lot of medical marketers on a routine basis here if anything stuck out to you. Yeah, you know the Unseen ISM effect that you mentioned Jack was something that I covered as you said there is a campaign that was done in partnership with actress Jane Seymour that I covered recently and it was basically Jane Seymour who is in her 70s now basically talking about this idea of older women feeling invisible when they go to the doctors office some of their concerns being dismissed and basically it was all about encouraging women to be better advocates for themselves as patients, but also encouraging Healthcare Providers to be more Are aware of this unseen is affect that really does happen. So I’m glad that that is getting even more Spotlight at phm healthfront. And I also am curious Jack you mentioned, you know, there’s obviously talk of AI there and we’ve been hearing about AI almost in every single interview been doing with agencies for agency 100. We we heard a lot about Ai and our own. Mmm events. Was there anything that like really stuck out to you about AI that you heard like a main takeaway that like you hadn’t heard anywhere else. I’m just curious. I think one of the things that stuck out to me is the fact that I think people on the media side are way less worried than what we see on the marketing side. I think that the people on the media side really have looked at like we’re going to be able to speed things up in the content creation or at least the drafting portion of that we’re gonna be able to make use of that where I think a lot of the marketers at least that I talked to or I’ve seen in our coverage it’s a lot of is this going to lead to reduction they had count are we going to be useful anymore as or stuff but they seem to be a real recognition there that’s like this. Is a tool that if you don’t use it, you’ll get laughed and if you do use it, you can still have those manual processes in place because Chachi BT or mid-journey or whatever tool you use is going to give you something but you have to be able to say is this relevant to our audience? How do we actually deploy this our source stuff? So it was interesting that it was kind of less the oh my oh my God, what’s gonna happen? Which I think I didn’t think that we saw a ton of when we were at our transform conference recently, but that was definitely kind of the undercurrent too know we can use this and it’s going to make our industry better going forward. Yeah, a lot of the you know, just to kind of tie this the seams together a transform one of the comments made, you know, when we’re talking about Ai, and then media was that if you want to buy advertising on the New York Times website for instance, you have to do a programmatically like there’s no other choice where is and Healthcare that hasn’t changed yet. There’s still a lot of you know phone calls going on rather than kind of doing it on a programmatic AI driven exchange. So and media, it seems at least not Health Care related endemic media. Like you say Jack there is that Embrace of this technology and it’s starting to come to health. It’s interesting one other point. I will just make before we move on and in terms of your excellent coverage of phm was always really interesting just to see what they’re talking about. There was that When we talk about some of the themes that their guests Brooke Shields and Union Wade broke up brought up. I broke up about, you know, the importance of being seen and being heard and and you know preparing for having a productive doctor’s visit, you know, we saw in our Healthcare marketers Trend survey that Pharma marketers are keeping up with the increasingly digital media habits of their customers. We saw growth of non-linear video and streaming audio outpacing traditional standbys, like sales reps and medical meetings and linear TV, which shows that consumers are having more opportunities to kind of online, you know support is where usually the more in depth kind of education research takes place. And so that kind of begs the question is industry meeting them meaning the consumer with the right language and tone or we speaking to Consumers, you know for medical marketers asked are we speaking to them in an overly branded way or are we doing enough disease State marketing to meet consumers? Is online to make sure that they understand do we need a new language for DTC to reflect the fact that people are shying away from these, you know more rep driven channels to the more kind of self self-driven channels. And so just want to put that out there that’s kind of like the chatter. I’m hearing and medical marketing circles and just to give you a sense of what those conversations sound like at least from being there. It does seem like there and at least you know Union Wade was very explicit in saying that that there needs to be a bigger push and a more relatable way of being able to say, okay, we have this direct-to-consumer push. Let’s use language that consumers actually use and go to the platforms that they’re at and it was interesting to hear. I mean other than very well known female actresses, but Union Wade comes in there with all so understanding as a woman of color saying we’re not being targeted in the same way with advertising and you’re missing a whole Community here that has not only the same Health needs is any other woman does but then very specific. Us culturally culturally relevant ones. So if you’re advertising isn’t incorporating that if you’re not using language and motifs and themes that resonate with that audience You’re missing out on that opportunity to put your brand from them in a meaningful way and they’re missing out on products that you know could actually benefit their lives in terms of health and wellness. So that was that was the sense. I got I’m glad that she brought it up. I almost kind of wish it was reverse where she was on the first day because there were so many more people obviously in the two-day conference. You can’t really control that but her message was, you know, do better and I think that to your point about being able to kind of modify where the industry is going, you know, it’s a less. I hope that people take home. Absolutely. Yeah. Well said we’re gonna talk about 420 next. Yes, right. Can you tell that I went to a hippie School in the Hudson Valley any excuse right exactly. As you know, we’ve talked about earlier you interviewed David trailor. Thank you from Golden Eagle Partners, which is an investment bank that focuses on cannabis companies. I thought your interview was a perfect compliment to this segment because the where we’re talking about what? Is the status of cannabis marketing and has 420 lost his Mystique is kind of like our thesis question, which I know rattle our EIC Steve Madden when we were thrown at that idea. He was like, what do you mean it’s lost he seems to take umbrage at that. Yeah, but then you explained it too and for for those in our audience, you’ll get to read marks on this but I think the angle that you’re taking on is very a student in terms of where things stand right now in the campus. Yeah, trying to trying to talk to people, you know, kind of like David people who straddle different worlds within the Cannabis industry. I spoke with a person yesterday who is a not only consultant but also runs a cannabis business platform speaking to a couple more people this afternoon and different areas of the business, but the status of cannabis policy really kind of dictates the State of Affairs on the marketing front as well, you know, as we said canvas remains among schedule one Controlled Substances considered to have high potential for abuse and no mental value and that’s holding the industry back from both the revenue and policy standpoint, but the US Food and Drug Administration is yet to issue marketing regulations creating kind of a wild west style environment where advertising is concerned and as far as 420 is concerned most of the people that have been speaking with so far at least I spelled with yesterday. He was saying that his advice and what he’s hearing is that businesses should be very careful around market around 4:20. for a few reasons one because they’re still questions about The effectiveness of advertising around this you know, which sort of become a national holiday around kind of Celebration celebrating cannabis culture and marijuana smoking but two there’s there’s issues around the status of the industry, you know, as you pointed out in the interview Jack the industry kind of has this sort of the diocese hanging over its sort of dynamically, excuse me hanging over its head kind of this outlaw baggage where there’s this tone of criminality, you know, it’s still remains illegal on the federal front. So businesses have to go through all these strange contortions to do business. They have to create, you know, multiple businesses that can operate across state line if they take cash they pay a higher tax rate. So there’s a lot of strain and stress there and you know, thirdly is is a reason that a lot of marketers will be familiar with and that’s there’s a lot of noise around around the day already. So it doesn’t make more sense to spend dollars and energy there when those resources could be used in other. Areas, where you’re not just one voice among hundreds yelling for attention. What you do see is not necessarily pushing the creative envelope and we’ll get into that. You know, people can read my column to see some of the examples that I do plan to highlight, you know, there’s a lot of stuff around discounts and you know sales but I’m also going to have an interview and some data hopefully and to kind of quantify, you know terms of what you’re seeing and hopefully be an interesting read for us now for sure and I’m glad that you brought up a number of those different points. It was interesting talking with David too because you do get the sense when you’re looking at the Cannabis industry that there is such a wide spectrum and you know, all three of us here live in the New York metro area, you’re in New Jersey Mark, which is a completely different thing from what we’re even seeing in New York. I David brought it up in our interview, but he called New York shit show and in terms of like how the campus market looks even compared to New Jersey which has a much more regulated streamlined one. I used to live in Massachusetts to two years. They passed legalization 2016 to when they open their first dispensary in November of 2018 in terms of getting all their ducks in a All David’s faced in Colorado. They have their own process and they in Oregon led the way back in 2014 after passing it in 2012. So it’s it’s been all this kind of slog but we we live here in New York and I I can’t go down the street without seeing illegal dispensaries and and and and pot shops. They’re everywhere and and that’s not a that’s not really complained. But it shows you just the difference in terms of where the market is. You can go the housing work in in Astor Place, which is one of the first ones that opened up that’s on the New York Market. You can also walk down the street and you have enlisted Black Market one that you’re gonna get a 90-day penalty to close up operations and there’s just no there’s no sort of consistency, which I know David talked about was a frustration going back to the marketing thing very second. I wanted to bring mush in here too because we’re talking off Mike about it. It seems like the marketing has kind of been wishy-washy at least in my own experience, too. I feel like a used to be this kind of a woo. It’s 4:20 and like you said that kind of like cowboy Wild West like we’re doing something so Belly is but now as it’s to become more mainstream doesn’t feel like it’s got the same zest around it. I don’t know. I I haven’t got a lot of pitches at all around. Yeah. It’s interesting that you brought that up because I also who knows when I think about I really haven’t received many for 20 marketing pitches either and you know, Mark brought up the the very good point that there’s still sort of this shadow of criminalization around it. There’s been all these confusing policies is different on State and locality. So there’s a bit of that muddled feeling around, you know, being able to market around it. But just you know one thing that’s maybe a bit of speculation on my part just you know, I felt in the last few years as you as you just mentioned Jack we’ve been seeing all these like dispensaries pop up in New York and I feel that like culturally and societally it’s become more normal to you know, talk about consuming weed edibles smoking whatever perhaps more so than even like five years ago or 10 years ago. Um, because you know various states have legalized recreational and medical marijuana increasingly. So I feel like they’re definitely has been a bit of a shift in recent years where it has become a little bit more mainstream than in the past. So maybe in that sense for 20 has lost a little bit of that Mystique because it’s not like the one special day of the year that you would partake in weed consumption because everyone, you know more or less does it every day? So, you know, maybe I would argue that there’s a bit of a loss of Mystique around that sense. But that is also just like purely speculation on my part and I’d be really curious too you talk about this kind of lost and Mystique because like when when we came out of prohibition and I would be so curious we could ever get like an alcohol expert in here like alcohol companies had to be like, oh no, it’s it’s legal again and you can drink whiskey or wine or beer or whatever your whatever your Vice is, but it had been legal beforehand. It was really just that like, you know, intervening 12 13 year period where is weed was never legal. Now it is truly like seeing something grow up in real time. And it’s you know, was that look like it used to be, you know smoking smoking out of a makeshift bong, you know an apple bong in the parking lot listening to right, you know Rusted Root or something. It looks very different now. Yeah, or I knew that would get you fits or you know now it’s like the appealing to Suburban Housewives who you know, it goes along with. Oh I can take a CBD gummy while I’m drinking white wine during book Night. Like it’s one of those things where we’re seeing. We’re seeing this whole class evolve in way that I don’t think we have a one for one comparison to I think marketers are just as confused. Yeah, and I would I would argue that I feel like a galaxy is that next Frontier with a Mystique now because you know research and and there’s going to be some initial policy around that coming up soon, hopefully, but I feel like that’s like the next area that there’s kind of still that Mystique around it a little bit more so than than marijuana at this point. Yeah, and of course, it’s always gonna lead with the medic. Little front you like you said Market was back in the 90s that California passed at medicinally and then recreational follows from there. I’m sure we’ll see a similar thing. I talked to the CEO of saibin who is on the front lines of you know, trying to push for psychedelics and certainly their their lead drug asset and that’s where you know, I think that industry sees it too is the medicinal purpose before it gets to yeah, go take mushrooms and listen to 311 or something. So right there’s usually a stepwise, you know, fashion starting with the additional uses followed by the but all that comes with different marketing too. It’s how you’re how you’re marketing it to Providers as opposed to Consumers. There’s it’s a whole hodgepodge here and we should say that, you know, in addition to the mainstream aspects that you both brought up the FTC Crackdown a few years ago within its enforcement approach to cannabis marketers and the FDA has sent some morning Letters Out of as well and that has had a cooling effect on the marketer. So with all that being said, we don’t have a third item, right we Didn’t have a third item now. Okay, this is this is normally the part where we would insert like hits from the bong or something by Pink Floyd or Stefan Wolfe if you were talking about before yeah, but Magic Carpet our producer fits that we don’t have the rights to do any of that so you can just insert your favorite 420 stoner song. I’ll do something right here Smoke Weed Thanks for joining us on this week’s episode of the MM+M Podcast. Be sure to listen to next week’s episode when we’ll be joined by Currax Pharmaceuticals CEO George Hampton to talk about the GLP-1 drug market and potential developments that could widen access to this class of weight-loss medications.