Elaine Gamble, former MM+M Awards jury chair and Otsuka Pharmaceutical executive, tells Marc Iskowitz how AI may facilitate pharma brands’ social-care strategy. 

In her policy report, Lecia Bushak discusses a new bill signed into law by New York Governor Kathy Hochul aiming to protect kids from some of the damaging effects of platforms like TikTok and Instagram. And for his Trends segment, Jack O’Brien serves up three new items: an op/ed in The New York Times calling for a ban on pharma advertising, Dr. Anthony Fauci’s memoir and the Medical Advertising Hall of Fame’s latest DEI social initiative. 

Plus, meet MM+M’s summer intern Molly Huth

Music by Sixième Son

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Note: The MM+M Podcast uses speech-recognition software to generate transcripts, which may contain errors. Please use the transcript as a tool but check the corresponding audio before quoting the podcast.

Hey, it’s Mark.

A few years ago. I wrote a piece arguing that biopharm was missing a huge opportunity to improve human health by articulating a well-defined social determinants of Health strategy the term sdoa refers to all the things that may not immediately prompt you to go to the doctor which are fundamental to Good Health such as socioeconomic status working conditions transportation and safe housing.

As such social determinants have an outsized impact on health outcomes including with Pharmaceuticals.

Industry can produce medicine that will change lives. But without the living conditions to support effective use of those medicines patients won’t see the full benefit.

Quote we used to say every medicine chef and digital strategy. Well, every medicine needed social strategy. What am I sources a former Pharma exec had told me but what could such a strategy look like?

Could Ai and the context of omnichannel marketing be that means of interphase leveraging technology to influence patients between touch points or when they’re not formally interfacing with the healthcare delivery system and how might biopharma companies step up and go beyond their traditional role to think more holistically about how their medicine are consumed and the overall context of a patient’s life this week on the show how AI can facilitate farmer Brands social care strategy omnichannel leader Elaine gamble former. Mmm Awards jury chair and not Soca executive joins me to explain and let’s just hear with a health policy update. Hey

Mark today, I’ll discuss a new Bill signed into law by New York Governor Kathy hokel that would take steps to regulate social media among people under the age of 18 as concerns around kids and mental health continued to rise

and Jack. What’s trending on Health Care social media this week. Hey there mark this week. We’re talking about a New York Times op-ed they calls for a ban on pharmaceutical advertising Dr. Fauci’s Memoir and news out of the medical advertising Hall.

Fame as relates to D Andy

a Marcus coats editor at large and welcome to the mmm podcast medical marketing media showed at Healthcare marketing writ large.

Hello and welcome to the mmm podcast.

Hello. It is wonderful to be here Mark

absolutely great to speak with you again. So it’s you know been several years since I wrote that piece arguing that biopharma was missing a huge opportunity to improve human health by articulating a well-defined social determinants of Health strategy.

Indeed. There’s a huge interface as one of my sources put it between how patients live their life and how effective it’s medicine’s are.

Fast forward to today and two observations one we’ve known for some time that people’s most important moments are not necessarily their touch points, but the Health Care system which occur at about rather the moments that happen outside the Health Care System the question for people interested in creating changes. How do we actually touch them and influence patients when they’re not interfacing with the health care delivery system

And and second of all Pharma marketers are moving out of the larger the Curious experimental phase with AI and into scenarios that can demonstrate real value.

So with that as Preamble alien, how can AI in the context of omnichannel marketing be used to address Health disparities and social determinants of Health?


to your point mark

the experiences that influence Healthcare and social determinants of Health are not just limited to healthcare and that might sound counterintuitive, but it is very true here as well when we talk about this topic.

So as Pharma we have an exciting opportunity with artificial intelligence to be relevant with the exact message at that pivotal moment for the patient. But through AI it allows us to expand our definition of what a pivotal moment means such that we are more exact and engaging that patient with the message that’s most meaningful them to drive behavior and to directly influence Health disparities. Those pivotal moments may not just be you were in the office. I’m going to talk to you when you go home or you’re on your way to the office and Pharma. We’ve leaned more towards those approaches but those pivotal moments that can be enabled by the beauty of already artificial intelligence. May indicate. We should be talking to them when they’re preparing for something important in their personal lives family. Is there something faith-based that’s important to the person when they thinking about and having the experience is that are meaningful and influence decisions and

If you’re around Healthcare and the conversations, they have through the beauty of AI we have the opportunity to deliver those messages at those pivotal moments in the expanded definition in a one-to-one way looking more holistically at the patient but through that enhancing our Effectiveness around medications and care

and can it be used to predict when that info will be most helpful when to serve up a message, you know, what particular social determinant of health is impacting this doctor or patient?

Absolutely artificial intelligence can predict the time when we should be in front of the patient around that message and we talk about social determinants of Health. That’s a big umbrella.

And when we engage the patient, we just can’t say I’m going to address social determinants of Health, but what part of that is most meaningful for the patient in that moment and Technology can enable us to have that exactness. So should it be a message around affordability? And here’s how a partner to you. Your medication is Affordable and you should be taking it to enjoy those wonderful experiences. Is it a message around trust in the healthcare system because we know the driver of Health Care disparities is how people experience the Healthcare System. It’s very different depending on where you live how much money you have and other related factors. So should it be something around building trust? Should it be a hybrid of the two should it be something else so through the beauty of technology that pivotal message at the optimal time, which may not be when you’re in your doctors office. We can also be more exact around what part of social determinants of health is most meaningful to that patient in

that moment to drive behavior that will give us better outcomes.

Of course, this is probably just you know, as you as you say the vision that you’re expressing here. What is the current state of affairs has kind of I mean, I have really seen the biopharm in the street articulate a well-defined social care strategy yet, you know kind of if you could talk a little bit about you know what you see as the current state.

When I see is the current state of affairs is interest.

But it’s taking a first step and sometimes the biggest consideration is culture.

and we’re an industry with

wonderful Brands transformative treatments

and our priority is always how I’m going to talk about the product here the five things you need to know about the product. This is why you should take the product. But in order to move the needle in these areas that we’re talking about today. It may not be a product Center message but something that’s perhaps related but doesn’t speak to the product itself. And in our culture we have to be ready to embrace those approaches. If we are going to impact these areas that pivotal message one to one at that optimal time for that individual patient may not actually be product-related at all, but through building that trust we enable outcomes related to our product.

Yes, I think we kind of are in agreement that this is the vision but it’s not yet reality. And you alluded to you know, the biggest challenges are being culture. Can you elaborate on that? What do you think are the remaining in a hurdles to this becoming more commonplace?

I think having a Clear Vision of when we look at Health disparities.

Which ones will we tackle for which groups of patients? I think we just think of it as one and maybe we could focus on one and do that extremely well.

So maybe that would be around affordability.

How do we find ways through our marketing strategy as well as triggered experiences enabled by technology at pivotal moments to bring that affordable ability message in a compelling way but also to empower patients once they have the information at the optimal time to speak their to their to their doctor and informed way a confident way and sometimes resources doctors can help them to identify as well when we have situations where people feel uncomfortable with health system or having conversations.

A lot of things are unspoken and we have to help with that. So as an industry, I think it’s culture and broadening beyond the pill and how and when we engage and then also giving our patients the language the tools to have those informed doctor patient

engagement one can imagine a lot of ways in so to speak to the sdoh conversation, you know, whether its clinical trial recruitment, you know, which has not really been done through a diversity lens or you know other social care aspects where industry, you know can play a role like, you know, when a pill is say prescribed, you know to prescribe it along with an app or like you said a beyond the bill type of solution that can address some of these more holistic challenges that the patients are going through but you just don’t see that as a matter, of course, and you said I think

Gets you said it very well. It’s because the industry really is very used to communicating through a product lens, but when it comes through to more of that corporate lens and is one. I heard one market to put it recently unhiding that corporate brand that’s still kind of a challenge for the industry. Maybe that needs to take place first before we see the industry kind of articulate this more of a holistic overarching sdoh strategy.

I think it can be done in parallel. I think that we can build that trust as an industry, but we can also do it at the individual level around that patient’s need or medication Etc. You mentioned diversity in clinical trials and that’s definitely on the radar of most Pharma, but that’s all good example of working in parallel educate around whatever is impacting one’s perceptions of clinical trials or negative perceptions, which is very common addressing that

why it is a positive for you to be part of a clinical trial.

At the same time in parallel the Recruitment and sharing we’re getting to diverse populations that people feel informed and they go into a clinical trial knowing all of the benefits that it can offer and they feel that it’s a positive. So I think the sequential approach waiting to address the industry perception, then we will look at these specific areas slows us down as close to accelerating progress.

Yeah building on one year earlier points. So about looking through a diversity lens. We’ve all experienced chatbots that don’t make the grade, you know, in terms of patient the patient facing side of AI how can AI do a better job of informing a patient say through a diversity lens when it’s proper to see a doctor when you might want to ask about a clinical trial with the message is that’s sort of thing.

Yes, there are two parts to that the kind of data that fuels the AI engine and algorithm, ideally first-party data, but also data that is comprehensive enough but anchored in your business objectives, too often we hear I’m just going to use AI to recommend the right language. But what were the inputs that went into it did that reflect a diverse population and based on those inputs AI is triggering a pivotal message at an optimal time regarding advice how you can talk to your doctor the misperceptions you might have providing a different perspective on them most importantly it’s not necessarily replacing human interaction, but it gives you a more informed Foundation to get the most value out of that live discussion when you have it but your data strategy must be comprehensive and anchored and clear business objectives. My first objective is for a patient to go into the doctor’s office and

Be able to ask confidently for for XYZ. My second objective is to accelerate time for patient consideration to adherence on the product and to fill a high level of satisfaction within the first three months. It has to be very specific objectives that fuel the data so that the beauty of AI can be realized and it gives that patient the right empowerment around information around how to have a discussion so that they will achieve the success that the doctor and the patient strive for

Sure, and I’ll ask you in a moment just for some overarching omnichannel advice because I know that’s on a lot of people’s minds these days. But first I wanted to touch on or follow up on a point that you mentioned a market access, you know, sometimes it’s appropriate. I always say to deliver and assess message. We even have seen some high-profile Pharma launch brands.

Change up their call to action to from from speak to your doctor about to you know, talk to your insurance company to make sure that this product is on your formula for us before you talk to your doctor. But obviously every marketer wants pull through but how can marketers use Ai and omnichannel to support access and pull through?

Yes, that’s one of my favorite topics Market access and Market access. I think there’s an opportunity for us to transform the role in communication around Market access. So how can omnichannel and AI influencer Market access pull through rather than having a blanket strategy. I’m just going to let the masses know we’re in formulary in these three three payers and that’s why you should get my medication its preferred Etc. It’s triggering the excess message at a pivotal moment for that patient or doctor based on the behaviors algorithms that determine when that right time is at the individual patient and Doctor level only engaging them both at the same time around market exhaust through that enabling conversations and also engaging in one of mentoring Journey afterwards, but the access message has to be presented at the right time with the right message so that it almost evolves from being

just an FYI reminder to being a tool around patients intricity for the patient and the doctor demonstrating our partnership our promise and enabling those effective conversations between the two so demonstrating Market strategy and our creativity in when we serve up the market access and tailoring that message for the individual patient Beyond you can get us in these three pairs that make sense.

Sure, I like that demonstrating that the promise that potential not just kind of like a means to an end.

Yeah, and not only a cost message either, you know, we we’re we can accommodate you with this cost but we’re giving them a more holistic solution. So we’re we’re triggering the message at the moment. This doctor needs to know about it. We know from our AI algorithm when three patients have not been successful. That’s what our product will be considered and our access will be acted upon when we know based on the doctors behavior when they’ve been researching these three times and they took a break and then they resume that’s when we want to trigger access. So it’s that kind of specificity and exactness to determine when to present the excess message and when it’s presented it’s presented not only with the affordability information, but all the resources that we have that surround the patients around the doctor and positive outcomes.

Okay, great. So now you know without further Ado I want to ask you for your advice about omnichannel. Just kind of some

Some do’s and dough don’t excuse me how to get it. Right? What people should be doing right now frankly, you know, if they’re still looking to get started with Omni channel that might be kind of hard to to Fathom that someone’s still not started with it. But if you’re a brand out there that really is still taking its its baby steps and omnichannel. What do you recommend as the low-hanging fruit which you should do is be very clear on your business

objectives for what an omni-channel experience has to deliver.

So it should not be I just want to generate sales. I want to be Innovative. So it has to be very specific. So an example could be I want to increase the number of doctors that migrated from trial to loyally accelerate time to Next in our rights by this percentage. I want to generate a more favorable perception of my product by engaging a first-time prescriber and I want them to write that prescription within this period of time and have a positive experience like it has to be even more specific than that, but you have to Anchor in what you want it to accomplish before you go right to the AI and write to the technology and once you have your business objectives design and experience composed of multiple touchpoints in channels, but prioritizing just one or two where you want to integrate we talk about Omni Channel. We talk about holistic experiences where digital has synergies with offline.

That when we’re focused on the customer. So what are two you could start with maybe it’s just email and the field calls that are integrated starting out and then you grow from there. But to start out saying you’re going to integrate every channel. I’m going to get right email the contact center mobile email the field. I’m going to understand everything the doctor ever did from the beginning of time does not set you up for Success. So starting out with a strong First Step, maybe just a couple of channels in your experience as the focus of the integration and the AI is focused on those two channels along with that it ties back to very clear business cases use cases and objectives and through that you set yourself up for success to get it right and over time you will grow in your level of sophistication, but don’t boil the ocean at the beginning

don’t boil the ocean. That sounds like a very sensible advice when

The Omni Channel and certainly a lot to bite off there. Finally, you know when it comes to omni-channel measurement talk about what good looks like there. How do you recommend marketers kind of calibrate their omnichannel measurement instruments to to correctly assess their efforts

on the channel measurement is very different from how we’ve traditionally measured where it was, you know, we might look at engagement levels and then Roi so it requires since it is a more holistic experience a connected experience for that patient or doctor. Your measurement has to reflect that so therefore when you look at your omnichannel experience, what was the engagement level and each of the touch points offered within it, but you’ll also want to look at the interdependencies across touchpoints. How does one influence the performance of another so in your engagement ecosystem which one had the most influence on the doctor as to whether they

Would choose to engage with another touch point that was available to them and really understanding that connectedness.

In addition to that traditionally in the past we’ve just looked at. Hey, my my response rate was ABCDE this month and next month. It was this but never looking at who was responding and if you were maintaining the same responders over time. So with Omni Channel, we’re definitely interested in whether we in fact our delivering a better experience and are you retaining the responder from execution to execution or are you attracting different people one set of people saw it and they didn’t find a compelling. So they never responded again, then you got another new set of people. Therefore you could be counting yourself as a success in engagement results, but you are not retaining your audience’s over time in interest and Journeys, which is very important for omnichannel excellence. So again to summarize its looking at retention over time, are you retaining the same people and the right people

the interdependencies across tactics and how does one influence the response of another to determine whether you are truly delivering Excellence is defined by the customer.

Fascinating that really interesting way to you know change up the measurements, you know for this omnichannel era that we’re in.

And you know beyond that. I think it was a really fascinating discussion about how AI in the context of omnichannel can be used to address Health disparities social determinants of Health if Pharma is able to kind of go beyond their traditional role and think more holistically about how their medicines are consumed and the overall context of the patient’s life. Frankly. There were some challenges there as you mentioned in terms of culture and whatnot. But it’s very promising and the vision is there we’ll have to have another discussion, you know when when this gets further along but Elaine thank you so much was a fascinating discussion.

Thank you and Ed welcome A continuing the conversation

Health policy update with lesbian

just about a year after US Surgeon General Vivek Murthy issued an advisory about the negative impact of social media on young people’s Mental Health New York state has made a move to protect kids from

Of the more damaging effects of platforms, like tiktok and Instagram last week, New York Governor Kathy hokel signed a new bill dubbed the stop addictive feeds exploitation or safe for kids act that restricts feeds driven by algorithms on popular sites, like tiktok for kids under the age of 18 the bill requires social media companies, like tiktok and Instagram to only allow feeds to show content from accounts kids follow rather than a feed driven by an algorithm that inserts content from anywhere to be viewed unless they receive approved parental consent.

Homeland noted in a statement on CNN that quotes you cannot turn a blind eye to trauma that is being inflicted on our children as special young teenagers today. They’re being bombarded with intensely addictive algorithms to pull them into a dark space and hold them captive.

She added that quote. These companies are monetizing our Children’s Mental Health Net Choice a tech industry trade group that encompasses acts and meta voice opposition to the move are going the new build was unconstitutional and quotes an assault unfree. Speech.

As New York State Attorney General Leticia James develops. The Bill’s rules the state expects the social media industry to file some lawsuits to block it while Federal legislation that would regulate social media companies for the sake of children’s mental health hasn’t yet materialized Murthy has continued to ring the alarm on the issue just this week. He called on lawmakers in Congress to place warning labels on social media platforms similar to cigarette packs that site mental health risks.

He noted that kids who spend more than three hours a day on social media are twice as likely to experience anxiety and depression compared to those who don’t I’m lesbian reporter at mmm.


and is the part of the broadcast we welcome Jack O’Brien to tell us what’s trending on Healthcare social media. Hey Jack. Hey there mark, so usually when we’re doing this segment, we talked about stuff that’s on social media or trending in the broader visual telecoms media this time we get something from the New York Times the print pages of the great lady with the op-ed titled. It’s time to ban the pharmaceutical advertising and I want to bring you in here first mark because it’s as with so many op-eds obviously if there’s kind of a nuanced take on things you can see this like, oh, yeah, there’s a good point here and maybe an overstep their wanted to get your reaction because when I was reading a at first I was like, I really wanted to talk to somebody like Mark who is obviously followed the industry for so long and is so in tune with what’s going on. What was your takeaway when you were going through the op-ed what stood out to you? Well, you know the op-ed

We should say, you know, it’s kind of arguing that because Telehealth companies are prescribing and distributing things like glp-1 drugs and other prescription drugs and they’re also partnering with tiktokers to share success stories, but they fall outside the realm of federal prescription drug regulations. There has been acknowledgment by the FDA that Federal prescription drug radical regulations, excuse me may apply to tell Health Providers and websites depending on their activities and structure but that has yet to be kind of codified in any formal way based on the harm that could take place there.

And there are a lot of obviously there is a lot of misinformation disinformation that’s being obviously spread through social media influencers. That that’s falling into this gray area and Visa V. The prescription drug laws based on that the op-ed argues we should ban.

All prescription drug promotion in this country. This is one of only two countries New Zealand being the only other one where it’s legal to promote an RX drug and the federal rules that allow that prescribe that you have to if you’re going to do that. You have to give Fair balanced which means you have to mention at least one FDA approved use of the drug. You have to mention such thing as a drugs brand name, its generic name and all the side effects of that drug.

So there are you know, a lot of well known well-regarded, you know requirements for you know for that right?

So obviously being you know working for a medical marketing trade magazine that represents the industry. I respectively disagree with that point of view and februari of this year a couple of Congressman Dick Durbin being one of them and

and Mike Braun

Senators wrote Dr. Robert califf of the FDA commissioner calling on him to take Swift action to update the fda’s social media promotional guidance, which hasn’t been updated since 2014 to encompass.

Health influencers on social media and I think that’s the right approach. I think we just need to update the social media guidance, which hasn’t been again updated in a decade to Encompass, you know this new form of promotion.

For too long. We’re seeing the ill effects of that and I don’t think there’s you know a need to throw the baby out with the bad with the bathwater the op-ed kind of dismisses any any positive benefits of regulated prescription drug promotion kind of out of hand, you know, and by quoting a study saying that you know, just a third

Of drugs that are advertised direct-to-consumer.

Have any therapeutic value or rated as Raiders having high therapeutic value quote unquote.

And I haven’t checked out that that study at determine what that means High therapeutic value, but you know usually only drugs that are still under patent are the ones that are advertised direct to Consumer. And so if the drug is on patent and it’s branded I would imagine that there is a therapeutic value to somebody so I questioned that study talk to any of the people are in our audience and and they can listen, you know rattle off many many benefits of advertising drugs to the general public and to increase the awareness of the availability prescription drugs the awareness of different diseases the benefits I think far away the drawbacks in terms of creating demand public sector demand for Health Resources again, you know industry can create, you know, the greatest drugs and the greatest Innovations in history, but unless people know about

them and how to access them and affordability again is there’s definitely challenges in affordability and access inequalities.

But that doesn’t mean we dismiss the need for more awareness of and more promotion and stimulating demand for these, you know, the great Innovations and Industry produces so that we can have a better healthier Society in general. So that’s that’s my brief recap of the of the op-ed and my take on that. Yeah.

I thought it was a really interesting op-ed. I think it touches on a lot of topics that we’ve talked about a lot this year on the podcast. I mean, obviously we’ve talked a lot about Healthcare influencers and how more and more brands are seeking to expand into that space more and more people that I’ve talked to for stories on Healthcare influence remarketing have said, you know, they’re increasingly investing in you know, partnering with with health influencers and Healthcare creators on tiktok. So it’s a space that’s going to continue to grow. I was definitely surprised to read that the FDA had an updated its social media.

And for Pharma marketing since 2014, I guess I’m not too surprised that the FDA somewhat slow to move on that but it’s still kind of surprising to hear because so much has happened since 2014 in terms of social media, but I do think that you know, this is an area that’s certainly going to continue to grow there’s gonna be increased Partnerships with Healthcare creators on tiktok Instagram pretty much any other social media platform and it’s going to be a matter of you know, the FDA making some moves on regulating specifically the Telehealth companies right now that appear to not have as many restrictions and regulations on how they’re they’re posting on tiktok, but it’ll be interesting to watch.

I agree as more Brands, you know forged relationships with influencers. This issue is going to become more of an issue for industry in terms of the need for stronger regulations here and in this gray area is going to need to be addressed and you know, the op-ed explains what the gray area is and that is that unless the Telehealth company, you know, generally speaking is speaking on behalf of the drug manufacturer then the agencies existing regulatory Authority does not apply. This is what Senators Durbin and Brawn are proposing to to do is to sort of fill that Gap with their legislation. So I don’t think a band here is called for I think just you know more specific legislation to update as you said unless the guidance which hasn’t been updated in quite some time. I think it’s one of those things where obviously I think you’re you’re analogy there where

Throwing the baby out with the bathwater as well taken because obviously there are so many things to improve upon in the industry when I tell people what I cover is a journalist and they’re like well isn’t are those just the annoying as we see on TV or you know, big pharma’s too much in terms of advertising and blah blah and there I think a lot of very well deserved criticisms of the industry and I think people within the industry with even cop to that where it’s like a lot of the ads like the same there should be more in terms of actual uplifting and encouragement of patience and Outreach hcp’s and a lot of stuff that I think a lot of people are doing with a genuine sincerity because they want to improve health care outcomes and they want to improve everything I you know, I think that obviously green and malfeasance and issues that we’ve seen with social media pop up and that needs to be addressed and I think additional regulation or or better guidelines are always justifying that place going out and just Banning the whole thing. I think that makes for a very good New York Times op-ed headline and I think it gets a lot of attention to people that are in our audience that would read that story thing. Do I think it’s feasible know?

Do I think it will ever happen? No, but is it a call for better action for better for better actors for better sorts of stuff that’s actually going to improve the industry. I do think it is. So I see where the point comes across. I also do think it’s one of those alarmist things where it’s like you read and it’s like oh, yeah, you’re staying around the water cooler. Did you see the New York Times op-ed and we’re even talking about it here. So a guy that’s intended response. I I’m curious to see how the industry will respond because I don’t think they’re going to take that lying down especially the creatives that we talked to I’m sure there will be some sort of response, you know, whether from an agency or whether from internal groups saying, oh here’s here’s actually what we think about your criticisms. And here’s how we’re going to respond in kind. So more to come on that front. I wanted to Pivot the conversation to our next topic, which is Anthony fauci who we talked to a lot on the show when I first started doing this about a year or so ago, but then obviously he you know was phased out of government and went back to private life. He’s now back with a memoir that came out last week.

It’s been getting pretty good reviews. I just wanted to touch on the fact that it wasn’t just a covid book. It wasn’t just that this is what life was like from March 2020 until I left government during the Biden Administration. It really touches on his extensive career in public health. And in terms of battling infections diseases going all the way back to the HIV AIDS epidemic through the bowl of Crisis and obviously through the work they did in covid and talking about you know, how he worked with the Trump Administration and then, you know, ultimately working against the Trump Administration from the inside as related to Medical misinformation the vaccine push. I thought I was just a very I have had a chance to read it yet. But seeing all the reviews of come out everyone says that’s very insightful and Brandon kind of a plain English that you would probably expect from seeing his interviews, but you won if you were looking at his credentials from a clinical perspective, so I wanted to bring you both and in case he had any sorts of thoughts on fauci kind of re-emerging the public eye. I don’t know how many more instances other than like, you know.

Hearing that the house representatives were actually going to get to see him and professional life because he’s 83 years old and he’s pretty much put in his time.

Yeah, I think you know, he’s become such a controversial and polarizing figure especially since covid-19. You know, I didn’t read the book but I did kind of read a sort of the the recap that stat wrote about it and one of the things that stood out to me not to make it about covid again, but he basically noted in the book that you know, he kind of looked back on how the US had handled the pandemic and realized where you know Public Health officials could have done things differently and so on and so forth, you know, a lot of the criticism that the CDC face during the covid pandemic and public health officials in general will sort of the flip flopping on guidance they did and sort of like not really quite knowing what was going on while it was going on, you know, I guess the learnings and the takeaways that he kind of points out is that, you know, during a pandemic like that.

A lot of times like the science is being discovered day by day. So guidance and public health, you know guidance might change day by day. It’s just a matter of tweaking that communication to the public to make sure that they also understand its changing but day by day.

And this is something that the CDC has tried to improve upon in its communication strategy since then so that kind of just stood out to me because when I spoke to people at the CDC about that they said, you know, we’re trying to make sure that we’re crafting campaigns and messaging to the public now in a way where we’re kind of admitting. We don’t always know what’s accurate in that very moment, especially during like an outbreak or a pandemic. So it’s just sort of an interesting takeaway that’s stood out to me and hopefully, you know, he’s not considered as much of a controversial figure in retrospect. This time goes on because you know, as most public health officials at the time. He probably did his best

lash. I think it’s interesting your your point on the ladder aspect of kind of working with the the science and the the medical knowledge that we have at the time. It’s noted in the LA Times review of the book that he had gone basically from Zero to Hero in terms of the HIV crisis. He had a lot of criticisms lobbed his

A from Larry Kramer in particularly among the activist Community for not doing enough and not allowing enough access to these experimental drugs that people who are living with and suffering from HIV and AIDS and he was basically the one that called on the Bush Administration. Hey, we need to expand access to these and more research more funding and that is really, you know, turn the tide in that direction and we saw the same thing at covid. I mean, even you know Republican relatives of mine thought oh, yeah, this is somebody, you know in March and April is somebody that’s standing up for us. That’s really trying to do the best and by the end of it. Obviously a majority of Republicans were critical of fauci for how he handled things and still are but even I saw a lot of Democrats and independents feeling that same way where it’s like this is just too much and maybe that’s too much media exposure. Maybe it’s the flip-flopping on guidance since the you talked about, you know, he’s kind of lived both sides been I guess you have to be that sort of detached personality to work in a clinical space Mark. I’m curious what you think about his re-emergence here with new book. Yeah. I was curious to read, you know stats take on this.

It because I you know have a healthy respect for stat and the apolitical way in which they cover Public Health among other health topics. You know, I would have liked to have seen more of

an admission from Dr. Fauci about things that he may have taken differently in a different a different course on if you could have approached covid-19 pandemic differently namely, you know, I think you know, I think recently the Surgeon General kind of fell on the sword and terms of the whole masking guidance and kind of acknowledging the fact that that was a political blunder and kind of saying the whole, you know, don’t buy masks masks or ineffective early on when they just kind of wanted to preserve the national Supply that kind of thing but then all so, you know, maybe that was not in his Bailey Wick but you know, certainly, you know, and I as well as all of us probably remember, you know that press conference where he was sitting there, you know with with the president and others and and conveying the first results of the fiser vaccine.

um and how we all thought that

It had efficacy against spread of the virus and that really there was a lot of confusion about what the vaccine could and could not do in terms of, you know, affecting transmission of the virus versus just the extent of the severity of the virus. And I think if that point had been conveyed more clearly and perhaps in a more and more humble way at the beginning. I think that could have avoided a lot of confusion and perhaps even misgiving and frankly a lot of the animosity that people held toward Public Health later on when they realize that people thought the rock had been pulled out from under them that oh these vaccines really can’t do what we thought they could and then by then when we were all saying, well the superpower the vaccines that will keep you out of the hospital. That’s not what people thought that they would do. They thought that they would it would keep them from getting the next the virus in the first place. So

That was you know, interesting and you know, just to kind of sum it up. I think it’s a shame that his.

Legacy is going to be kind of judged kind of with recency bias when in fact he’s served so many presidents and done so so much for public health accomplished such an amazing accomplished career.

This Memoir of his is well-timed in that regard because hopefully it’ll set the record straight and on one thing and that is that he deserves our utmost respect and utmost thanks, you know for his complete career and and this is a man who you know really has devoted his life to serving the country’s professional life to serving this country and he deserves, you know, all of the Fanfare and the respects that we can give


I think it’s a very good summation their mark and it brings us into our third story here kind of focusing back on the industry after we had kind of looked outward there. The medical advertising Hall of Fame is undergoing their second annual Dei Talent acquisition social initiative, which is the you’re more than your resume and this is being led by Ma. H-f’s co-chair and relevant Health CEO Tim pantello. Basically, what’s going to be going on is relevant health is going to be taking volunteers from participating agencies who submit their profile to the AG.

Say they’re creating 28 ai-powered images that they refer to as a mashup.

Can be posted the medical advertising Hall of Fame social media channel shared out by the agencies to reflect the diversity personalities and people working across the agency business to inspire others to make a radical career move into our industry or consider starting a career with us. And this is one that kind of hits home for me because when I first started at M&M one of the stories that Larry dobrow are editor had assigned me to cover was you know the de and I work back in 2022 and there was a lot of it going on there was a lot of people that were investing time and interest and resource in the space. Obviously, we’ve seen a claw back over the past couple years all of us did our various agency 100 profiles and you know, there’s a lot more Focus now on AI and all sorts of different stuff. I think Dei is for a lot of broader and in some cases political factors taking a back seat. It’s good to see the ma HF stepping up here Lesha. What are your thoughts on this initiative? I know that you know, we’ve both done our fair share of Dei reporting and it’s kind of nice to see it.

Pop back up in a way. That’s not so polarizing. I guess you can say

yeah, you know I always think about this question, you know, it’s about four years after 2020 and you know, the black lives matter protests which kind of sparked this Nationwide conversation around the e&i and obviously spurred a lot of pharmacies and you know healthcare agencies to

Me commitments to D. And I and it’s always nice to see four years later that hasn’t really faded necessarily even though you know.

It seems like it’s dropped from some conversations a little bit. When I do try to catch up with people from health care agencies or in the Pharma industry about it. It seems like they are still working a lot behind closed doors to kind of move the needle on D9 issues. So it’s always good to see it spotlighted, you know, four years after this big conversation was had and a lot of people made commitments and it’s it’s good to see that they’re staying committed to that.

Absolutely. I agree. Let’s show that they’re great to see that they’re continuing to

Keep attention focused on this very vital issue obviously of Dei in the medical marketing industry, you know, it’s just like you said Lester there’s been a net and a natural kind of waning since the death of George Floyd saw so many pronouncements by agencies in that area. There’s been a few kind of deliberate attempts want to when I reported on a couple years ago where a number of the holding companies were actually collaborating to kind of compare notes, which is very unlike them, you know talking talking about very competitive very competitive industry here holding companies are actually comparing notes among HR director’s when he came to efforts to recruit a more diverse Talent into the industry looking at some of the things I saw coming out of can last week as I’m sure you both saw they had a whole Beach

Um devoted to Dei which is really nice. I think the woman who was running it to this, you know shows that Dei will never die kind of the line that stuck with me and I think that’s really nice sentiment, you know, because we were saying like a lot of corporations are starting to pull back a little bit on their Dei efforts with the Supreme Court ruling this past summer, you know about affirmative action. And so it’s it’s really important. You know, it’s not it underscores the importance of What mmm does you know, sorry to kind of give a plug for M&M but when we help Healthcare marketers do their jobs Better Health outcomes improve again, because we direct patients to available treatments and we raise we help marketers do their jobs of racing awareness of different diseases and things and and in order for the industry to effectively talk to all audiences out there. We have to make sure that there’s a diversity at the table and we can’t do that unless we have a good pipeline of talent coming in so very great to see.

Um Tim pantello and his latest iteration as you know person spearheading this year’s pro bono initiative. Of course, he and Ken magazine Junior at concentric life are now co-chairing the moth. They just took over this year and so great to see this Dei initiative and we’ll keep an eye on it at mmm. And that’s a great segue for me to introduce mmm’s latest summer intern Molly Huth. Who’s going to tell us now what you’re doing for the medical advertising Hall of Fame Molly.

Hi everyone. I’m working with the medical advertising Hall of Fame the summer to kind of compiled the best of the best from the last 15 years or so. We’re making a sort of online coffee table book and just looking through all different campaigns from over the years and highlighting some of the amazing works that people have done

awesome. Yeah. I know that’s one of the

Other big ticket items that Tim pantello as working on as moff chairman is the medical advertising the Hall of Fame coffee table book. There’s been two outs so far. I think this is number three if I’m not mistaken.

So that’s really great that you’re helping put that together. How’s that effort going by the way?

It’s good. Yeah been looking through all the

different comp

different categories and just some really cool creative campaigns.

Yeah, we definitely see a lot of campaigns across our desks as Emma and reporters and you could do a lot worse than looking at the mmm Award winners, you know to see, you know, the breadth and depth of all the different, you know, great work the industries doing so

All right. Well, welcome aboard Molly. Look forward to working with you on that this summer and seeing the wind up of that. All right. Well, we’re gonna wrap up this week’s episode on behalf of Jack O’Brien and unless you Shack. This has been Marcus. Thanks for joining us. Be sure to listen to next week’s show. We’ll be joined by Dr. William Maurice MD PhD who CEO Mayo Clinic Laboratories

For this week, the mmm podcast is produced by Bill Fitzpatrick Gordon. Our theme music is by Susie himself rate review at follow every episode wherever you listen to podcasts new episodes out every week and be sure to check out our website. Mmm online.com for the top news stories at Farmer marketing.