Dentsu Health’s Collette Douaihy, chief creative officer, describes the global team effort behind the agency’s Grand Prix winner Scrolling Therapy – the app which enables Parkinson’s patients to exercise their facial muscles while navigating social media – in conversation with Jack O’Brien. Lecia Bushak discusses the new Office of Long Covid Research and Practice, and offers an update on the battle in Congress over the drug shortage issue. And the spate of videos depicting “maternal-assisted caesarean” delivery tops our social media segment, along with items on TikTok’s #FairyFlying trend and the “Vaccinated??” meme. Music by Sixième Son.

Note: The MM+M Podcast uses speech-recognition software to generate transcripts, which may contain errors. Please use the transcript as a tool but check the corresponding audio before quoting the podcast.

Hey, it’s Marc…

It wasn’t long ago that the medical marketing world descended on the French Riviera to honor the best campaigns and promotional efforts in pharma and wellness.

Among those bringing home Lions was Dentsu International, which earned the Pharma Lions Grand Prix for Scrolling Therapy, an experimental, AI-based app launched for Brazil-based pharma company Eurofarma that aims to help people with Parkinson’s slow down the progression of the disease while they scroll through social media.

The app, designed to enable users to control their scroll using facial expressions, is another example of the trend of h/c brands harnessing technology to assist pats with challenging medical conditions.  

As you may recall, we previously touched on Scrolling Therapy on the social media segment and reported on it for the website. But this week, we’re lucky to take a deep dive.

My colleague Jack O’Brien spoke with Collette Douaihy, global chief creative officer of Dentsu Health, about the conception and execution of Scrolling Therapy, what it means for the Parkinson’s community and how it felt to take home the Grand Prix.

And Lecia’s here with a health policy update… 

Hey Marc, today I’ll discuss the launch of the federal government’s new Office of Long Covid Research and Practice – and what that will look like for long Covid research. Plus, an update on the battle in Congress over the drug shortage issue.

And Jack, I understand that the summer months haven’t’ exactly brought a lull in healthcare memes. What do you have for this week’s healthcare social media segment?

This week, we’re talking about how the #FairyFlying TikTok trend is raising self-harm concerns, the ‘Vaccinated??’ meme and moms lifting newborns out of their wombs during C-sections in a new social media trend.

Hello. I am Jack O’Brien the digital editor at mmm. I’m pleased to be joined today by cocoa. Dawaii the chief creative officer at dentsu Health Coco. How are you doing today?

Very well. Thank you.

I appreciate you being on the show and we’re gonna really focus the conversation around scrolling therapy. And for those in the audience that may be unaware. I would be surprised if anybody in our audiences. Can you give us just a quick overview of what scrolling therapy is that we can kind of get into the specifics of how it all came about.

Sure. Absolutely. First of all, I’m very excited to be here and talk about this because this this was a labor of love between dance.

Creative and densu health. It’s really a beautiful simple idea. It is an app that helps people with facial masking symptoms who are living with Parkinson’s disease and basically what this app does is allow them to still feel human to engage in social media. But while engaging in social media is to exercise their facial muscles while they’re engaging and they can actually use their their face expressions to actually navigate.

Social media, which is amazing, right? So a very simple app, it doesn’t necessarily seen seem simple when you think about what it can do but the idea was really allowing people with Parkinson’s to engage in social media while doing exercises that are typically very daunting and I’m really kind of curious again. I kind of want to get into the origins of how it all came together because when I first heard about scrolling therapy, it was truly like an aha, like how did somebody not come up with that idea in the first place? And I wonder like how how it all came to be in terms of feedback. And you know, is this the way that we want to present it, you know, what was that process like internally at dense Sue collectively we use this term called radical collaboration and it’s the first company truly that I’ve been at that truly practices radical collaboration. So I was brought on about a year and a half ago to help launch density Health Solutions before there was a true formalized Solutions offering.

And how it all came about which I think is a great story was really thought through and developed. The idea was developed in Argentina. Then we produced it in the US and then final production in Brazil. So really it was a global team effort to Think Through. What were some of the things right out of the gate was we were a brand new team working together. I was new to the team in Argentina vice versa production in Brazil. We were all coming together doing introductions, but needing to work together pretty fast and I thought what a brilliant turnout that we had because not knowing each other and having to get in and work so quickly together. We really did work as a team. So something like how did it come about health got involved because of course, I’ve been doing this now for 24 years Health the focus on health and we want to make sure that we are approaching, you know, Kind of Health Initiative in the right way from a creative perspective densu created was very involved in the original idea. But then we’re thinking how do we make this come to fruition? We have a colleague of ours named Sebastian Porto who was diagnosed about six years ago with Parkinson’s disease and he was a an integral part of the story. I like to say that Seb was the heart of this story and how it how it came to life.

And he talked very early on before we even had real pen to paper yet about the importance of facial masking. And for those who don’t know what facial masking is is it literally freezes your facial muscles and you’re you you lose the fundamental right to express yourself, whether that be laughing or crying or being surprised and sep talked about in a way.

That he said he didn’t know much about it and his doctor mentioned it to him. And as he started talking around a lot of people didn’t realize that you know, there were exercises but for the people who did it was very daunting you have to go through 45 minutes of standing in the mirror to do these facial exercises.

It’s very lonely. It could be very degrading make someone feel childish if you will and quite frankly they tap out early. And so there’s a huge.

You know drop off only like 3% I believe it is engaged in facial masking exercises. So You know, the the insights really is not just one the insights that came together early on was talking about how can we use?

Something so simple like facial recognition and or something like the Insight of we spend close to two and a half hours a day on our phones and social media swiping.

And those conversations kept leading to more ideas of like could we actually help someone with Parkinson’s use their facial exercises the way to navigate? So as those talks and you know, I wasn’t part of those early talks, but as those talks took place.

We realized that we are on to something very special and I got introduced to Seb pretty early on and and had a lot of wonderful conversations with him and all of us, so wanted this idea to live. So that’s where the radical collaboration came in understanding that. We were all from different disciplines that we needed to hit the ground running and running fast. If you will we were trying to make an April deadline for Parkinson’s awareness disease.

So that’s truly about how it started out so much more took place thereafter, but I’ll let you ask the next question and I think that kind of leads in you brought up a number of very interesting points as it relates to stigmatization Patient adherence, you know, all those sorts of things. I think when it comes to maybe Lessons Learned going through this process you talk about being on a tight deadline doing something that truly hadn’t really been seen in the industry before what sort of less than stick out to you as a leader where you’re like, I wasn’t expecting this when we went into the project, but now in hindsight that was something that I can take away as oh this applies to maybe some of the other projects we’re gonna you know embark on Down the Line.

Yeah, and it’s really a lesson learned isn’t necessarily a negative thing. Right? So my lesson learned was probably to hit the ground running even faster right?

There was a lot of work to be done in technology.

The lesson learned on a positive thing was we did literally a stand-up meeting every single day with the team internally and we met whether it was it was always a half hour whether we met for half hour 15 minutes or it went over and if some of us couldn’t make it we had each other’s backs. We were literally on those meetings every single day talking about what was needed to be done who’s gonna own that we crossed swim Lanes, which was amazing as a team, right? I was leading some of the NGO conversations to figure out who was gonna from a client perspective want to get involved also working on creative and copy even though my background is an art background. We had a lot of that happening and I think my biggest lesson learned is we could have dove in a little faster into maybe some of the things to talk about the technology of truly how it’s going to come together and what was needed for that, but honestly,this was In the history of my career the most collaborative productive short timeline and well-produced. Peace. I have ever worked on so I was blown away by the team’s dedication to wanting this to come together. And I think that’s the lesson learned. If you’re in it to win it you will absolutely and we’ll get to the winning at part because I certainly want to follow up on that angle but as it relates to the actual launch, what was that like and in terms of maybe stakeholder feedback, I know the Parkinson’s Community is obviously a very vocal one you think of the Michael J foxes of the world in terms of bringing a big awareness to it. What was that all like once it actually went live, you know, that that’s a great question. We had talked with the Michael J fox Foundation. We were an early talks with them. Michael was off doing his documentary still which is a beautiful documentary. Um, you know, he talks about facial masking and things like that. I would say that we just need it more time. You always need more time, right?

but I think getting to launch was really interesting because closer to the date that we need to go launch we had.

Reached out to Apple and we weren’t getting the responses we needed we were starting to like, oh my God, how are we going to make that happen? We had already had Google Play on board. So we were racing against the gun to make sure everything was detailed. The technology was also one of our bigger challenges, right you can do technology and and kind of push it through and make sure but it has to be seamless right that integration for a patient experience has to be Flawless. They have to be able to want to interact with it. So we did a lot of testing testing internally.

Testing to make sure this you know, the app was functioning in the right way. We talked to our patients that are in the film as well to make sure that we’re understanding their perspectives reaching out to all of the ngos across the globe. Everybody really loved this idea. I think it was the shortness of time that we were able to get more people on board right out of the gate, but we’re still working on that right? This project doesn’t end where we left off. It continues to grow. In fact, I have some follow-up conversations to do and I hang up with you with some of the ngos, which is making sure that we’re still talking to them about Partnerships and making sure that we’re getting this app in the hands of the people who need it most.

It’s really interesting you hear you talk about not basically it’s the launch wasn’t necessarily the end of this endeavor. There’s still so many more aspects to it going down the line and I obviously want to talk about what happens after launch, which is you go to can and you ultimately win the lion there. Tell me about what Experience was like I’m sure especially with all the work that you just outlined in the sleepless nights and the long days. It has to be so validating on that angle.

Oh my God, so so very validating. We knew we had something special. It was a race to get to can it was a race to quite frankly get to launch to to capitalize on Parkinson’s disease awareness month as well.

And I think again that team effort you you are driven by adrenaline and when we start to see the Pieces come together for instance, like when we finally got Apple to say yes, you know, you know, we threw a celebration we’re all excited. It was the adrenaline that kept us going it was and we knew that we needed to make it in with a really compelling and beautiful and yet Simple Story which we did and to be awarded by can was with the highest honor was unbelievable for all of us. We were blown away super excited. Yes. There are a lot of sleepless nights to get there. In fact, I’ll just tell you this quick story. I wasn’t actually at can this year which was one of the years that I would have really should have and liked to have been there but was not there live but watching the team literally play out the scenarios and the stories and watching them on stage and I was getting blow by blows of what was happening in that room.

And or I should say in the theater and it was like I was there I had gone probably for six years prior to that. But I do miss having not been there this year for this kind of a win. The team was amazing. And and this is another thing I learned I think we are all so collaborative that we’ve given each other.

Positive feedback to each other and giving credit where credit is due and we traveled together. We celebrated together we produced together we just it was a team Dynamic. Like I said, I’ve never had before and I’d worked on some other pieces that were great, and it’s not to say they weren’t it’s just whatever the dynamic was and the people this one was a hundred percent on the nose. Right?

And I guess I’m kind of curious about that too giving that you had such a lengthy career and this is such a crowning achievement that sort of way, you know, what comes next. I know that there’s obviously probably some pressure to say. Oh, we just had this really, you know, validating experience with this project but they’re gonna be others down the line. How do you carry that momentum or maybe these Lessons Learned into some of those other projects whether or not it’s even in the Parkinson space. I’m sure they’re gonna be other endeavors they have to to bring this too.

Yeah, and I think you know having like some of the other teams I have worked with, you know, if people weren’t in it you kind of felt and it’s just maybe not because they weren’t in it. Maybe it was other deadlines and other things happening and I think I take away that you have to set the stage right out of the gate of who your team is gonna be in how you’re gonna function and how you can’t function so we know where the pitfalls are right there will definitely be more Innovative work. We are constantly innovating at Den Sue as a whole agency, we have stand-ups all the time on innovation in the healthcare space, especially right? Our team is equipped to lean into the larger Network for some of those Innovative Concepts and ideas that are bubbling up. In fact Eduardo and I my my partner we have a meeting set tomorrow to talk about some new ideas that are going to come up for the dentsu creative Council in October and we’ll bring those ideas forward. We’ll talk about them as a group will decide what goes forward what doesn’t

I think you know also in health you are constantly.

Looking for ways to make that customer Journey or experience a smooth one right when you have such debilitating diseases like Parkinson’s or Ms. Any kind of Technology that’s going to make their lives better or a therapy or something like that.

That propels you as well to go seek and find an answer. So there will be more innovative ideas coming.

I think if anything because I’m relatively still new to the agency a year and a half in.

We all have such great momentum to move forward on any ideas that come our way. So I think you know, we’re ready bring on the next

it sounds so encouraging and I’m obviously very excited to see what happens there. I’ve appreciated you being on the show and me will obviously share the insights of the process and what it was like winning it. Can I want to give you the final word in terms of maybe any parting thoughts to those in our audience given that you you know are kind of standing at the pedal still here with you know, the entire industry watching anything anything else related to this project that you want them to know about sure.

I mean, like I always say this I love what I do because the work that we do has the power to change lives. It really does and this is a perfect example. It’s work like this that’s shaping our industry and I think digging deep into those insights of of What patients are going through we’ll lead to wonderful beautiful ideas. That ultimately will help that Journey.

Awesome. We’ll Coco again. I really appreciate you being on the show here congrats again on the lion. It’s awesome.

Award winner on the show and we look forward to everything that you and density are gonna have coming down the line.

Thank you so much. It was really nice meeting you.

In a long-awaited move, the Biden administration has officially announced the launch of a new Office of Long COVID Research and Practice, which will lead the federal government’s initiative to study and explore treatments for long COVID.

The White House also announced that the National Institutes of Health is launching patient enrollment for its long Covid clinical trials. Congress originally set aside $1 billion in funds for the initiative in 2020.

Health and Human Services Secretary Xavier Becerra said in a statement that QUOTE “it’s crucial that we address the impact of long COVID and provide resources to those in need.”

Long Covid refers to a long-term condition that affects some people who have been infected with the COVID-19 virus – and is defined by several symptoms that can last for months, including severe fatigue, fever, difficulties breathing, or even neurological problems.

The launch of the office and trials is a long time coming, as the NIH received some criticism for delaying the trials, which were originally supposed to launch last fall.

One of those trials will examine whether taking Paxlovid for longer can help long Covid patients. Other trials will investigate brain fog treatments, as well as treatments for sleep issues and other symptoms, and are expected to launch in the coming months.

About 7.7 million to 23 million Americans have developed Long COVID, according to the HHS.

Next on the drug pricing front, Republicans and Democrats in Congress are battling over how to address the drug shortage issue that has plagued the pharma industry for months.

House Energy and Commerce Committee Chair Cathy McMorris Rodgers introduced a new Republican-led draft bill last week that would seek to give drug manufacturers more quote “flexibility to respond to market pressures, so they can invest in manufacturing and ramp up production when potential shortage situations arise.”

That bill comes shortly after Republicans blocked a Democratic effort to enact their version of a drug shortage provision in the Pandemic and All Hazards Preparedness Act reauthorization.

Currently, there are hundreds of drugs in shortage on the FDA’s list – from ADHD drugs to cancer drugs. Among them is semaglutide, the active ingredient in popular diabetes drugs Ozempic and Wegovy. I’m Lecia Bushak, Senior Reporter for MM+M

And this is the part of the broadcast when we welcome Jack O’Brien to tell us what’s trending on healthcare social media.

Hey Marc, 

There were a few stories that didn’t make the cut, including Madonna saying she feels lucky ‘to be alive’ after her ICU stint, an influencer who promoted fruit-only diet died at 39 from malnutrition, Oscar-winning actor Judi Dench admitting that a degenerative eye condition has left her unable to read scripts or see on set, a woman who participated in the 75 Hard challenge ending up in the hospital and a Denver Broncos wide receiver is diagnosed with pericarditis. 

However, we start today with the latest viral TikTok trend features audio that seems innocent enough. 

“She was a fairy,” a voice says as whimsical stringed music plays in the background. 

The TikTok fad involves people creating an optical illusion that they’re floating or flying like a “fairy.”

In videos that have gathered millions of likes, TikTokers try different methods to make it look like they’re floating in the air or dangling off an invisible string. This includes standing on desks or tables, gently bobbing up and down and flapping their arms or having a pair of Crocs hanging off their ankles. 

While the trend has an innocuous and fun origin, some experts are expressing concern that it may have a darker impact than expected. 

Upon first glance, viewers may be confused about the “floating fairies,” which can easily be mistaken for someone dangling off a rope or hanging.

Dr. Josh Stein, a child and adolescent psychiatrist at Newport Healthcare’s PrairieCare program, told the New York Post that the trend could potentially be triggering for some people who struggle with suicidal thoughts.

TikTok is the platform of choice for Gen Z when it comes to conversations about numerous aspects of their health, including mental health. 

With a plethora of influencers and countless mental health trends, TikTok has the potential to be both a positive environment to discuss mental health issues openly and change stigma, but also holds the risk of encouraging damaging, risky, or self-harm behaviors.

In a study published by the Center for Countering Digital Hate in December, researchers found that TikTok began recommending content involving eating disorders and self-harm to 13-year-olds within half an hour of them joining the platform.

TikTok has argued that it does not allow such content: Under its suicide and self-harm section on its website, the platform notes “we do not allow content depicting, promoting, normalizing, or glorifying activities that could lead to suicide or self-harm.”

The company “works with emotional health experts to continually improve our policies and approach,” it added.

TikTok has not yet commented on the flying fairy trend and it doesn’t appear that the platform has taken action against videos featuring the hashtag #flyingfairy.

Leisure you wrote this story and I’m I’m interested in the fact that a lot of the times that we’ve talked about the risks of being on social media. It’s usually something so blatant and obvious but this is kind of more of a gray area when it comes to yeah, there’s the potential for self-harm but at the other end, it’s just people trying to have fun with an optical illusion,

right, you know tiktok has stated and

Section on self-harm they are going to be banning like really blatant content that is, you know, linked to self-harm or suicide or other problematic things. But as you mentioned this Flying Fairy trend is definitely in a bit of a gray Zone because you know the vast majority of people who are taking part in it or seeing the videos or kind of in on the on the joke, you know, like they’re they’re aware that it’s kind of a fun silly Whimsical kind of trend but for an outsider who isn’t in on it, it can definitely be a little confusing and kind of scary and potentially triggering and I imagine there’s a lot of other videos and and Trends on tiktok that kind of fall into this gray Zone where they’re not blatantly espousing self-harm or suicide, but they can be triggering to some people so, you know right now tiktok doesn’t seems really have anything in place for those kind of gray area content.

But for now, it seems hopefully most people who come across the Flying Fairy Trend so sort of know what it is.

And yeah, it’s it does seem, you know innocuous at first glance, but for those who are prone to suicidal thoughts or Tendencies, they can, you know, mistake it for someone dangling off or Roper hanging and I guess that’s the call that tiktoks self-harm department or their

Department of content moderation that that’s the call that they need to make I guess in consultation with experts and not sure how they do that sort of thing. I thought that upon learning of this trend in your piece that it seemed pretty innocuous. Especially when you compare it to the kind of content that was pushed to in the study that you referenced from the center for digital harm, you know, the content that was pushed to the to the vulnerable account in that study was much more, you know, openly insinuating, you know attempted suicide and that kind of thing as opposed to to that in the study. This this seems like it’s a little bit more and in the gray area, but I will be interested in seeing is that a 60 Minutes reported?

That 1200 families are pursuing lawsuits against tiktok and other social media companies for just this sort of thing and you know, whether that threat of lawsuit that’s that’s now been followed through on will make them any more likely to be a little bit more aggressive in their content moderation and how they label this kind of


Yeah Mark you talk about it from the angle of you know, kind of involving big Tech in you know, Online safety for adolescents and young users and also the mental health stuff that lashes report on you know, extensively over the past few months where these children are exposed to such graphic and unwarranted things. This is really on the lighter side of it all but you can definitely see where somebody is impressionable and they see something like that. It can be triggering and I know lushing corporate that into her peace, we’re users were saying like, oh it took me back for a second and not everyone has had the same experience online the same life experiences and even as something as innocent as that could probably you know set somebody off or make somebody uncomfortable. So it’ll be interesting to see how it all plays out and figuring into the larger.

Dynamics at play as it relates to Big Tech Healthcare and and the responsibility of being online.

Last week, we discussed the cardiac arrest suffered by Bronny James, who is recovering after the abrupt medical event.

In the course of researching what happened and how the story was being reported by mainstream media outlets, it becomes clear that there’s a frequent refrain in the comments section any time a young person dies or suddenly collapses: ‘vaccine?’ or ‘vaccinated??’

Whether it’s James, Damar Hamlin, or ESPN soccer analyst Shaka Hislop, who fainted on live TV last week, people flood the comments section blaming these instances on the COVID-19 vaccine.

Pointing fingers at the jab is nothing new for this cohort and neither is combating these assertions with humor. We previously discussed a social media trend where TikTokers impersonated supposed vaccine side effects with wild gesticulations and dance moves earlier this year.

However, in the latest instance of taking anti-vaxxers to task, online users have started mockingly blaming various calamities on vaccines, no matter how ridiculous or nonsensical. 

In recent weeks, such things attributed to the COVID-19 vaccine have included the implosion of the Titan submersible, the collapse of a crane in midtown Manhattan, a natural gas pipeline explosion in Virginia, a dismembered cryptocurrency influencer as well as even Jesus Christ.

It’s a good observation Jack, you know, one one story leads to another it’s a tasteless way to you know, make your argument but if that’s the way you want to go about using Twitter or other social platform to discredit, you know anti-vaxxers if that’s your thing. Hey more power to you.

I just want to throw out one thing that I briefly brought up the last time we talked about this issue.

But just to provide some context on these kind of claims linking the vaccine to these sudden cardiac arrests, you know even just preliminary Google search and looking at a few studies and the Cleveland Clinic has a page specifically dedicated to cardiac arrests in athletes. There’s been researchers setting this link for years why young athletes tend to it’s rare but it does happen why young athletes can sometimes experience a cardiac arrest while they’re playing a game or during practice and it’s usually a number of factors that could be a situation where they do have a structurally normal heart, but then it’s place under certain level of pressure or there’s a undetected like hearts defect or condition that wasn’t diagnosed that kind of comes out when you know, they’re under a lot of extreme pressure when they’re exercising. So there is a lot of research

Going into this link and it all predates the vaccine. So I just want to throw out that context as well.

I said one more thing. I wanted to tie in just with Lesha talking about the the years of research that have gone into this and obviously this not being a new Phenomenon with younger athletes experiencing, you know cardiac issues. It’s just been heightened by the the anti-vax or campaigns against the covid-19 vaccine and the the cry or the refrain that we always hear is do your own research, you know, don’t be brainwashed around Research into luscious point. There are Decades of research behind this specific issue and that conveniently doesn’t come up in these conversations. It’s always well, it must be modern. It must be Johnson and Johnson and so just to just to put a bow on what Lush has brought up there, you know, do your own research does involve going to peer-reviewed journals and and looking at the research as it stands.

This third item is probably one of the stranger things that we’ve ever talked about on this show and it comes from another piece that Lecia wrote for the site.

A recent trend in C-section births, in which mothers lift their own babies out of the womb, has been amplified by social media. The practice, dubbed maternal-assisted caesarean (MAC), has been offered by obstetricians who claim they want to help women feel more empowered during their C-sections.

But questions remain around whether this type of procedure is safe, and multiple medical experts have cautioned against it.

In a recent Instagram post, a birth and postpartum doula named Vanessa Salerno showed a video in which a mother pulls her baby out of the womb in the midst of a C-section.

“Bringing life into the world via caesarean section is every bit as awesome as giving birth any other way,” Salerno wrote. “Who says it can’t be empowering? #Birthisbirth and let no one tell you any different!”

Few hospitals and healthcare organizations have weighed on the safety of MACs. But some birthing organizations, including the Empowered Motherhood Program, have written blog posts espousing the procedure. MAC advocates claim that traditional C-sections prevent immediate mother-to-infant bonding.

Other obstetricians and some health systems have opposed the procedure. In an August 2021 memo, the WA Country Health Service (WACHS), Western Australia’s public health system, noted it had been seeing an increase in requests for MACs and stated that it does not support the procedure.

In the memo, WACHS noted that there simply isn’t enough scientific evidence attesting to its safety.

Despite their online popularity, MACs remain relatively uncommon. But that hasn’t stopped advocates and mothers posting their own stories on TikTok, under the hashtags #DoulasOfTikTok and #BirthWorkers.

Yeah, you know it’s interesting because I had done a previous story on the freebirths of tiktok, which is slightly different but it’s essentially women who refuse medical assistance during birth and they want to give birth at home in bathtubs and they’re living rooms and it’s a very controversial Community, you know, a lot of medical experts say that’s very dangerous to do that without some medical assistance and I may seize is a little different because there are some abstractitions and some clinics that are offering it and I guess The Advocates argue that it’s positive for both the mother and child because it like in a traditional C-section the immediate skin to skinned mother to child bonding doesn’t happen. Whereas in this one the Mac that can happen and it is quote unquote empowering for the mother.

You know, some of them have described it as being a wonderful experience, but there’s also obviously these risks of infection, you know risks of something going wrong that because of those risks. It’s not really a commonly accepted procedure. It’s not standard at the vast majority of healthcare clinics and hospitals at the moment, but it is seemingly gaining popularity.

Yeah, and I was also a little bit initially obviously surprised by this one, but when the more I looked into it, you know, I read the account on the on the Australian birthing Centers website and you know, I thought well, maybe it’s you know, this is something that’s sort of confined to outside the US at this point, but then I found another site in Minnesota that actually

Had a patient story on there where there was a mother who she had been interested in this she knew this was gonna be the last child that she gave birth to and she found an OB that was going to do it. They’ll be initially wasn’t familiar with the procedure. But the more that they looked into it they felt that they could mitigate those risks which as you say less should include, you know that the bleeding and the Mother’s Hands in the sterile field and that they felt that they could manage that risk and honor the mother’s wishes and you know not to get too graphic with the mother also had some kind of medical condition where even though she had regular some other other children before this she wasn’t able to give birth and the conventional way so she needed to do a C-section, but she wanted to do it in an mac and the day that she was that she wanted to labor turns out that the OB was not on duty they were on vacation and this mother appeal to the ob and the whole team came back in from vacation just to help this mother have a maternal assisted cesarean section and and it gave the Obi I think a lot of

Joy to be able to honor this Mother’s wishes and to work with them and take them out of their comfort zone a little bit. So, you know this thing this does seem to be on The Fringe. It’s a little unnerving to those of us that kind of grew up with with Western medicine and sterility and all that that are kind of pillars of medicine but honoring the patient experience seems to be a priority for for some hcp. So it’ll be interesting to see whether it gets more widely adopted on these Shores.

Yeah, and you talk about that Balancing Act between, you know, honoring the patient experience and wind them to you know, have a fulfilling time there. But also the sterility issues we’ve obviously covered in the past. The maternal mortality rate in this country is well behind some other Advanced Nations too. So it’s one of those things where on the fringes gaining popularity, but how safe is it really for both the mother and infant what sort of responsibility do you know hcps and Healthcare organizations have in terms of offering or you know, at least accepting those requests. It’ll be interesting to see how it plays out in the

I’m not I don’t have a good read on whether one way or another how it shakes out.

Yeah, the it’s a great Point Jack in terms of you brought this for this up as well. We were talking about this Offline that the maternal death rate has doubled in this country according to recent research. And so I I’m sure that you know, we’re not gonna see an abundance of policy statements by the, you know, medical associations condoning this procedure at any time soon, but we’ll have a continuation on this theme not the maternalists cesarean section theme, but on the doubling of maternal deaths and some efforts to address that on next week’s podcast stay tuned for that and that’s what we call ending the show with a teaser. That’s right.

That’s it for this week. The mmm podcast is produced by Bill Fitzpatrick Gordon failure. Leshabushak and Jack O’Brien. Our theme music is by scissy and Son rate review and follow every episode wherever you listen to podcasts new episodes out every week and be sure to check out our website. Mmm, for the top news stories and farmer marketing.