Jack O’Brien talks with Kate Cronin, chief brand officer at Moderna, about how she’s mixing education with entertainment as she guides the Cambridge company — best-known for its mRNA-based vaccine technology — beyond COVID. Lecia Bushak has the latest on the debate in Congress over avoiding a government shutdown, and what that means for healthcare. And “Budget Ozempic” tops our Trends segment, along with items on “Parkinson’s on steroids” and legalized magic mushrooms in Oregon. Music by Sixième Son.

Note: The MM+M Podcast uses speech-recognition software to generate transcripts, which may contain errors. Please use the transcript as a tool but check the corresponding audio before quoting the podcast.

Hey, it’s Marc

When Kate Cronin joined the biotech company Moderna in July of 2021 as its first chief brand officer, it was at a time when people were slowly emerging from the pandemic. 

Moderna, along with its counterparts Pfizer and Johnson & Johnson, were regarded with a healthy dose of admiration for their heroic efforts to develop safe and effective COVID vaccines in record time.

But Cronin – who had spent her career to that point serving pharma clients as an agency executive before coming to the product side – had been in the business long enough to know that fond feelings are generally fickle. 

And indeed – her challenge quickly morphed into managing issues around Moderna’s mRNA shot, from the steady stream of demonstrators gathering outside the company’s Cambridge HQ to the anti-vaxx movement. 

These days, Cronin’s still facing detractors: NFL quarterback Aaron Rodgers recently took to social media during Moderna’s sponsorship of the US Open to undermine the launch of its fall vaccination push.

But she’s now focusing her firm on a longer-term goal – capitalizing on Moderna’s built-in brand recognition, but also communicating to convince the public and investors that Moderna isn’t merely – in her words – a “COVID company.” 

This week on the podcast, Jack O’Brien interviews Moderna’s Kate Cronin about her transition from the agency world to the product side, leading the brand beyond COVID, and how she’s striving to make that narrative relatable through a mix of education and entertainment.

And Lecia’s back with a health policy update. Welcome back, Lecia… 

Thanks, Marc. Today I’ll provide an update on the debate in Congress over avoiding a government shutdown, and what that means for healthcare.

And Jack, what’s been trending in healthcare this week? 

This week, we’re talking about ‘Parkinson’s on steroids,’ ‘Budget Ozempic’ and legalized magic mushrooms in Oregon.

My name is Jack O’Brien. I’m the digital editor at mmm. I am please be joint today by Kate Cronin the chief brand officer at moderna Kate. How are you doing? I’m

doing well. How are you today? Jack?

I’m doing well. I really appreciate you being on the show. I kind of want to start before we get into the modern side of things. You obviously haven’t interesting background that kind of correlates with our audience coming from the agency side into the world of Pharma. Can you talk to us about making that transition because I think a lot of leaders either either live on one side or the other but you’ve been able to go in both spaces.

Yeah, so I joined Madonna a little over two years ago.

And I spent my entire career basically working on the agencies. So my entire career was focused on serving clients across multiple different categories from consumer health to Pharma to technology you name it. And so with that I never thought I wanted to go on the client side because I was always learning so much and experiencing different categories and I love to pitch business and so going on the corporate side was an interesting change for me because he had to learn I had to learn a lot about manufacturing and we’re manufacturing products and obviously on the agency side, you were Professional Services. So it’s about offering hours and time and and creative and then when you look at the corporate side, it’s about offering products. And so that was a transition for me and just learning how companies run. I’m on the executive committee.

In part of governance, and so really understanding, you know, how do you run a big Global Corporation? That’s manufacturing selling products is very different from the agency side. So it’s been exciting and fun and the way I look at it is I have one client now and that one client I laser focus on 100% my time.

It’s so interesting to hear you talk about in terms of you know, the changes from one world to the other. Obviously, you joined during the middle of the covid-19 pandemic moderna, obviously like the like Pfizer in Johnson stepping up and creating these world-class vaccines that save countless amount of lives curious about how that experience was for you obviously stepping into something that was so Monumental and had so much worldwide focus and then we can kind of go into how moderna is pivoting out of that now that we’re out of the emergency phase of the pandemic

so

Yeah, so great question Jack and I think when I joined Madonna it was May or July of 2021. So we were still in the pandemic but people solely moving out of the pandemic there were vaccines available and the energy was back in terms of being able to get back to your lives. And I think my my message to my CEO was you know

We’re viewed as the heroes right now, but you know eventually that changes and you know, my prediction came to be unfortunately it became a challenge in terms of managing issues around our vaccine. Some people didn’t think we made enough vaccine for around the world. Some people were against the vaccine and so we went through a series of protests outside of our offices here in Cambridge and literally from one day the tech to the next I didn’t know what they were protesting because it was either you were against vaccines or why can’t you make more vaccines for low-income countries and we had some challenges with making enough for around the world because the reality is this was an R&D company that suddenly became

You know a worldwide well-known name and we had to make products for around the world. And that was not something that already company could do overnight. I think majority did a fantastic job eventually getting to that point but we had some challenges along the way and I think those challenges continue when people say you know, how do you how did you make money off of the pandemic? Is that right? Is that moral? And the reality is it is business. We obviously declared that we are not going to no one will be denied a vaccine. Everyone will get a vaccine they want them during vaccine, but there were challenges along the way so I think I joined that inflection point when it was no longer, you know, I wouldn’t I wouldn’t call The Glory Days but you know, it became more challenging with different issues popping up

and you talk about that inflection point obviously. We’re at a very unique point in the pandemic here where we’re at the emergency sit stage. We’re trying to move into these this

Density really interesting how that’s going by the time that we’re talking about this the FDA has approved your updated covid booster. We’re gonna see today what the CDC says in terms of rollout, but obviously there’s gonna be that fall push. You just reupted the US Open in terms of being a sponsor with the primary focus of people are gonna go get their flu shot. They should also get their covid booster shot. I can tell you anecdotally and they’re a lot of well-meaning people that might say hey, I’ve been through this I got my original. I’ve got my two boosters. Why do I need another? What is the messaging from Modern on that front? Because I’m sure there’s a lot of fatigue out there that you have to deal with. Yeah,

and the fatigue is is real I’d say before covid there were anti backsters and I worked in the back scene category. I worked on private or whatever vaccines and they were always antibacters. We’re just vaccination for various reasons, and now we moved into this new phenomena of tea to your point. So you have a combination of antibacteria. There’s also this myth that I’ve had.

It in there for I don’t need a vaccine and so we we’re really laser focusing on education. I think it’s important for people to understand everything. They need to know about vaccination. We’re not obviously twisting people’s arms. It’s up to you as a human being to get your vaccine decide what you want. But the reality is, you know, we it’s it’s on us to make sure people understand.

What is in the vaccine? Why is it updated? What what is it? What is it? What’s the issue with the new variant versus the old variant? Like there’s a lot of misinformation out there and confusion and I think for us it’s really about basically modeling after the flu market and if you think about covid it’s a top four killer in the US during the 2022-23 season it led to three times more death than flow. And so if you think about it, it should just be an annual vaccine the way flu is and so we’re really targeting that kind of messaging. It’s just like get it once and for some people you might need it a couple times if you’re new compromise, and I think that really will set the market into a steady state if you will versus, you know last year where people got you know, two or three doses of the covid vaccine and then they have fatigue

no totally understandable and I want to you talked about the segmentation of the critics that moderna’s face whether it’s on the pricing side or on the anti-back side recently. There was a very prominent one with Aaron Rodgers attending the

US Open Crossing out your logo saying Novak’s Djokovic and reference to yokovic’s refusal to get the code vaccine. What was your response at or what was the company’s response? Because I can imagine you hear from plenty of people but when it’s somebody as you know prominent is one of the most popular players in the NFL it takes on a different way to imagine. Yeah,

I mean look they’re

No back was did not want to take a vaccine and that was very prominent last year at the US Open and we sponsored the US Open and this year, you know the Tweet or and social media from from Aaron Rodgers. I think it’s it’s his prerogative to to say and do what he wants to say. We don’t respond to that sort of thing. That’s you know, it’s up to him. If he wants to do creative, you know messaging around his point of view. I

appreciate their response to that kind of pivoting off of the covid questions here obviously modern is trying to Rebrand itself. Our I shouldn’t say Rebrand itself, but put itself out there as a company that wasn’t just a covid-19 manufacturer you’re doing a lot in the cancer space looking at other conditions that your mRNA technology could affect. Can you give us an update on next? I know a lot of people are saying what’s the next move? You know, what’s the sequel here?

Yeah.

So we’re really leaning in on a number of different categories Beyond covid. So if you think about our pillars where respiratory disease so it’s covid flu RSV. We’re going to have an RSV vaccine it flu vaccine. Eventually. We’re gonna have a combination of possibly covid flu Kobe flu RSV. So respiratory is a key pillar oncology is a key pillar we had data last year and this year that demonstrates that are individualized Neo antigen therapy is it’s working in our clinical studies versus Katrina and in combination with the truda, and so that’s super exciting and then we also are looking at rare diseases and I think latent vaccines as well. So if you think about Epstein-Barr virus or megalovirus and we’re looking at all those categories and the cool thing and the exciting thing is that

MRNA actually works and our studies and across all these different disease categories. So

for us the challenge now is prioritizing. So which ones you know, we’re we’re Limited in terms of resources. We can’t study everything all at once so which which categories are we going to lean into and I think right now we’re really leaning into respiratory oncology and rare those feel like that. They have the greatest potential to happen soonest. So that for us has been super exciting and what I want what my role is is to communicate this is to make sure people understand that we’re not just a covid company and that we’re a platform technology company that platform technology is mRNA and that we are able to use this across number of different different categories and disease areas. And so that’s really what we say when we talk about the MRN age and this changes everything. It’s it’s an agile way of studying. It’s we’re able to tweak for example our flu we’re able to tweak very quickly and change it.

Based on you know, what the new variance of concern are and it’s a model that’s very different from typical Pharmaceuticals.

And I imagine that goes into the fatigue the vaccine fatigue you mentioned earlier and being able to say oh, this is a One-Shot flu covid RSV. I did want to go the messaging aspect because I think about it from you know people that I speak with in my life. Who if I say modern I think their first into instinct is gonna be. Oh I got their vaccine. I got covid as a person that comes to mind when it comes to that messaging. How do you measure success on that front? I imagine in the next, you know, five to ten years you would like to people is here modern and they think oh, yeah, that’s where I got my RSV vaccine or they treat you know this condition and it’s outside of necessarily just covid.

Yeah. I mean, I think

There is a built-in brand recognition. As you know prior to covid people did not recognize pharmaceutical company brands. Like you got a product. You didn’t know who manufactured it was a BMS was a Novartis. I don’t know barely know the name of the product, you know, I have the time so I think now we have this great brand recognition. And so people recognize moderna and so equating the journal with mRNA is great because then we look at mRNA and say let’s educate around. Why should you care about mRNA and we’re equating that with Cutting Edge and Innovation because it is and so we’re connecting the dots for people so that when the next major vaccine or product comes out you can say yeah. I know I’ve heard about mRNA and I know I have mRNA in me and I’m interested in you know asking for modern vaccine in the next major product and I think it’s just it’s just a very it’s more of a consumer mindset that I think has happened typical in this category.

Because a lot of times it’s usually the providers who are making those decisions but I think because there’s a familiarity already with moderna and what we do and mRNA. I think it’s just the next step is further educating and getting people to understand, you know, what are the products that are coming and being aware of in our technology Works in their body.

And is there a certain latitude that comes with it too? I mean some of the competitors that you’re facing off against in the covid space but also in the RSV and the cancer space too are established names, but do have some history some of it good some of it bad. I think that you know, there are plenty of scandals or controversies around fires or Johnson. You name it but modern it does come in there and it’s like, oh there isn’t that so I imagine there’s a little bit of momentum that you’re able to work with and say we come with something of a clean slate. Yeah.

I mean, we are a relatively newcomer right? I mean, we’re more than 10 years old. We were in R&D organization only like this is really our second year really first year fall season commercialized and so yeah, we have a clean slate and that respect obviously majority has been in the news for a number of other things, but I think

What we want to focus on is what is that slate look like what is our narrative and how do we get that narrative out in a way that is relatable and in a way that people can understand. I mean I talk about education edutainment entertainment and combining it too because we’re looking at this. So so the US Open Booth was an example where people come in and sign the lens and engage with the company and so it’s really about taking that opportunity to to educate on on who we are and why we’re here. I mean I say that, you know, it’s important that people know who we are because people you know, they don’t trust what they don’t know and the more familiar you are with the company and we stand for what our ethosis the more likely are to pay attention and want to engage and so that’s really our opportunity. I think from an Enterprise brand perspective.

Excellent. Well, okay, I really appreciate you being on the show. I want to give you the last word here just again because you come from the world of where our audience is agency leaders Marketing Executives if you had any sort of partying

To them as they kind of navigate this newfound World. We’re still kind of seeing the dust settle from the covid-19 pandemic, but there’s anything as it relates to medical marketing or trans that maybe our audience should be paying attention to I want to give you the floor for that one.

Yeah. I mean, I think my learning is

covid changed everything and I think everyone became much more attuned to their health and every company became a health company hotels became Health company airports became Health Care Airlines become a health company. And so that’s an opportunity also to go direct more so than we ever have in the past because people really do care and we’ve learned that they become very educated on their own health and educated on complicated science people understand now, what a variant of concern is people understand phase three clinical trials. And so the doors are open now in terms of really reaching consumers directly and and having that kind of discussion conversation and engagement with them. So I encourage everyone to do exactly what what we’re doing and spend the time to work directly with consumer audiences and I would say and use entertainment education and entertainment to reach them.

Awesome. Okay. I really appreciate your insights appreciate you being on the show and certainly wish you and the company best.

Like going forward.

Thank you Jack. Thanks for having me.

Lawmakers in Congress have until the end of September to pass spending bills to avoid a government shutdown.

But contention between House Democrats and Republicans have resulted in a gridlock over a bipartisan appropriations bill that advanced last week. And a group of conservative lawmakers are aiming to block that bill from going forward, prompting all 98 House Democrats in the New Democrat Coalition to urge House Speaker Kevin McCarthy to find a bipartisan solution.

Without a short-term funding fix, the government could be headed towards a shutdown by October 1, which could impact several public health programs, including the Community Health Center Fund, which sends federal funding to health centers – as well as several programs aimed at curbing the opioid epidemic.

A shutdown would also leave the reauthorization of the Pandemic and All Hazards Preparedness Act up in the air.

Finally, a government shutdown could impact the President’s Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief, or PEPFAR – which spearheads the nation’s global HIV/AIDS response. Some Republicans have sought to block reauthorization for that program, claiming that it offers funds to organizations that provide abortions.

On Monday, Senator Chuck Schumer noted that he was working to get the spending bill QUOTE “back on track” to “get us one step closer to funding the government.”

I’m Lecia Bushak, Senior Reporter at MM+M.

And now it’s time for the Trends segment, which means we’re welcoming Jack back to tell us what’s trending in healthcare.

Hi Marc,

Rep. Jennifer Wexton announced Monday that she would not be running for reelection and planned to retire following a diagnosis of progressive supranuclear palsy (PSP).

Wexton, who is 55-years-old and has served in the House of Representatives since 2019, announced that will not seek reelection next year due to the effects of the rare neurological disorder, which she called ‘Parkinson’s on steroids.’

This decision came more than five months after she publicly disclosed that she was diagnosed with Parkinson’s disease, which her medical team later clarified to be PSP.

PSP is a frontotemporal disorder that can cause dementia along with issues walking and balancing. It affects around 20,000 Americans, mostly those over the age of 60. The prognosis for the condition is considered generally poor, with people living around seven years after being diagnosed.

Wexton stated that there is “no getting better” with PSP, noting that while she will continue to receive treatments that largely target Parkinson’s disease, they are not as effective for treating the former disease.

She added that once she leaves Washington in early 2025, she plans to spend her “valued time” with her husband and two sons.

I think I speak for both Mark and Lesha that it’s obviously tragic news when you hear something like this, obviously a public servant who has been dealt a really tough hand and you know, as I said earlier the prognosis on this is not very good at all and she acknowledged and her press release that there’s no treatment for the disease.

Yeah, you know, it’s it’s definitely tragic as you mentioned Jack for someone who’s relatively young to be faced with a pretty pretty difficult prognosis and something that has no cure whether or not this was her intention. She is a little bit raising awareness about this pretty rare issue as it’s been mentioned, you know, she was Miss.

Diagnosed with Parkinson’s for a while prior to receiving the proper diagnosis and it’s not it’s fairly common for people to be misdiagnosed with Parkinson’s when they actually do have Progressive super nuclear palsy. So I think even just the fact that this is you know, someone who’s in the public spotlight.

Coming out and and sings, you know, this is the diagnosis that I had. I was misdiagnosed despite having these symptoms and I think it does raise awareness for other people who might be suffering with similar symptoms or might want to get a second opinion and get the right diagnosis.

Great Point by Alessia. It was wasn’t obviously the congresswoman’s intense, you know to raise awareness, but she’s she’s doing that now, you know and the response to her announcement on Twitter was overwhelmingly a positive in that regard, you know messages of support and whatnot. And you know, I just kind of think back, you know to a story I wrote last December where people were saying this was going to be a year of tremendous Neuroscience progress. Like we saw with the Alzheimer’s drugs ALS and even in depression, you know, a new drug was approved for postpartum depression that could potentially change the way that disease is treated but Parkinson’s remain

Elusive and you brought up the point Jack a lot of people don’t know that it’s much more than a movement disorder. It causes dementia and so forth, but despite the approval of I think seven new Parkinson’s drugs over the last eight years none slows the disease progression. And so this underscores the need for more research and raising awareness, you know is a good thing in that regard. I know there’s some pretty high profile people involved in Parkinson’s research philanthropy. So what can we say, you know, our hearts go out to representative wexton and her family.

A few months ago, Lecia reported on the Nature’s Ozempic trend on TikTok and now, she has brought another concerning weight-loss push to our attention.

With popular weight loss drugs Ozempic and Wegovy costing up to $900 a month, many consumers are searching far and wide for cheaper alternatives. 

However, those searches are contributing to a shortage of laxatives like Miralax and Glycolax, touted by TikTokers as alternative tools for weight loss.

The increased demand for polyethylene glycol 3350, the generic name for Miralax, has led to empty pharmacy shelves and shortages. Searches for the drugs have tripled on Amazon in the last year — and the buyers are increasingly young adults.

This is evident on #GutTok, a corner of TikTok concerned mostly with gut health, covering everything from inflammatory bowel syndrome to probiotics. Even a cursory search of #GutTok reveals countless videos about Miralax and other laxatives used to treat constipation, bloating and more.

Not surprisingly, the “budget Ozempic” trend concerns many dieticians and medical experts.

I want to bring Less in here first since you wrote the story, you know, we obviously send you down these rabbit holes and a lot of them have related to you know, obesity and and weight loss. This is one where it’s

you know almost kind of obvious like maybe you shouldn’t be just taking large amounts of

laxatives

to in an attempt to lose weight, but clearly a lot of people are doing it and it’s got dietitians on the internet more than a little concerned.

Yeah, you know, we’ve sort of touched on this before when it comes to tiktok, but I think this again exists in a corner of tiktok that kind of toes the line between like joking Trends and people actually following them because if you search laxatives and weight loss on tiktok, there’s a lot of videos that come up where people are kind of a little tongue and cheek about it or like jokingly saying, oh when I take Miralax before I need to wear a bikini on vacation or like, you know, joking that their doctor prescribed them Miralax and they ended up getting skinny. And so there’s like sort of a jokey element to it. But then when you sort of read about some of the the trends of young people ordering laxatives way more than before you realize that it’s it’s more than just a joke because people are really buy

Into this and it’s beyond even I think weight loss because as we’ve talked about gut talk before there’s like an obsession on tiktok around gut health and so a lot of people are seeking laxatives as sort of a solution to all sorts of gut problems are having not just weight loss. And so yeah, it’s it’s an interesting corner of the platform and you know, we’re definitely seeing tiktok exacerbate shortages.

Yeah, not only do diabetics need to contend with shortages of ozympic and mungero. But now those with constipation can’t find Miralax. It’s a

can’t believe we’ve gotten to this point as one of the

gastroenterologists told the journal, you know, it’s crazy to think that are collective ballot is function problems have gotten so bad that we’re literally running at a stool softeners. Yeah. It’s a great life story. But you know, it’s also interesting that there is a hashtag gut talk. I thought that was interesting. You know, it just shows the many different Corners as Jack said that you know of the internet that we send you down with these stories Elisha really interesting areas to mine. And yeah, it’s kind of like you would think that people would apply the same, you know common sense that they’re claiming to apply to sort of you know, and sort of being very skeptical of things like the covid vaccine say, you know, or you know people that are anti-vax will say hmm. You know, we had we don’t have a treatment for Parkinson’s Parkinson’s after Decades of research. And yeah, we have covid vaccines after after, you know eight months, you know, like

Then apply the same skepticism, you know to these areas.

That’s a good point.

I’m sure it’ll it’ll be a passing fad and people will you know realize that hey you should go out to other there’s a reason why I was epicum Manjaro. So popular, you know not to do a commercial for the glp

one.

I think it’s proven. If anything when people say do your own research or you know believe in common sense or whatever. There’s always a little bit of you know,

I’ll do it for myself as opposed to you or whatever, you know, people are are a little more pick and shoes on that.

We’ve touched on the emerging psychedelic space in previous episodes, but recently, one state took a major step forward.

Last week, Oregon launched legal access to psilocybin, also known as magic mushrooms, to the public.

Epic Healing Eugene, the nation’s first licensed psilocybin service center, opened in June and currently has a waitlist of more than 3,000 names. People with depression, PTSD or end-of-life dread are seeking access to the drugs that they hope can help treat their mental health concerns.

Oregon is not only in this camp as Colorado voters passed a measure legalizing the regulated use of magic mushrooms next year and California’s state legislature approved a measure to allow the possession and use of certain plant- and mushroom-based psychedelics like psilocybin and mescaline. 

Health officials in the Gold State are developing guidelines for therapeutic use of the products.

But this obviously something that is a major step forward. Obviously, we’ve seen leaps and bounds in terms of the policy related to cannabis over the past decade but now it starts to see that there’s a little bit of momentum around psilocybin Still Remains to be seen about how that interacts. We were having a conversation off air about the the federalism aspect of it too where State policy May differ with federal policy and that could you know,

Present some sort of obstacles for whether or not these treatments will be able to fully be accessible by as many patients as maybe would want them.

Yeah, my guess would be that, you know States might move faster than federal policy on this but it all seems to be pointed in the same direction. Even if you know Federal Regulation inches slower behind we did discuss this a few months ago, but in the summer the FDA did for the first time roll out guidance for psychedelic drug trials. So the outline, you know, trial conduct data collection subject safety for researchers who wanted to explore psychedelic therapies for the pride depression and anxiety and other mental health issues. So I know the FDA has kind of started to inch in that direction, but it is it’s pretty crazy to think that Oregon has taken such a big step forward and it’ll be it’ll be interesting to see how that kind of rolls out on the ground and and works out for them.

Yeah, absolutely and it also underscores the fact that you know, there’s a saying

In in the general business world that at the end of the day, everything is legal, you know, it comes down to what the laws say. You can and can’t do in this case. You know, the state is is moving probably ahead of the federal government. But in this industry a lot of that and at the end of the day is regulatory, right and suicide men, I think Jackie looked up is still a schedule one product. And so even though it’s now legalized in this one state there could still be issues, you know, in terms of accessing and controlled substance, you know schedule one controlled substance from a regulatory perspective and in terms of you know doing any business, but you know the banking system or taking across state lines, you know any number of implications there, but it’s kind of and cannabis, you know as mentioned, you know, it’s kind of living this dual life right now. It’s it’s

Legalized in many states recreationally and medically but on a federal level not which is kind of holding back the industry. It also highlights, you know, the unconventional ways. We were saying that people are looking to ease their mental health woes, you know, we wrote a story last year about online startups fueling a Mini Boom in at home ketamine treatment startups like mind Bloom and wondermed and to go along with these walk-in ketamine clinics.

And so just you know, another way people are finding to I guess address the the burgeoning Mental Health crisis in this country

and to that point mark, I think it’s important to underscore the fact that Oregon led the way when it came to cannabis as well, Oregon and Colorado were the first two states back of 2013 that legalized recreational use of marijuana. So there are a lot of parallels there, but I know that lesson I are both gonna be going to the health Conference next month and I remember I recall from last year having a few companies and leaders coming out to me saying, you know, we’re in the psilocybin space. We do X Y and Z as it relates to magic mushrooms, and that was last year seeing the amount of momentum that’s taking place this year in Oregon, Colorado and California. I’m curious about what those conversations are like because to your point mark they’re obviously is demand. There is a you know, there are a section of people that are already using it whether it’s legal on the federal or state level. It’s just a matter now of how that regulatory framework starts to unfold and what that looks like from a medical treatment perspective. So certainly something

Be keeping an eye on and obviously it’s gonna be more activity in the months and years to come but this is the first step along that line.

Yeah, they are leading the way indeed what we’ll see where it goes.

Thanks for joining us on this week’s episode of the MM+M Podcast. Be sure to listen to next week’s episode when I’ll be joined by CSL Pharma’s Chief Communications & Brand Officer Anthony Farina.

For this week, the mmm podcast is produced by Bill Fitzpatrick Gordon failure lesbian bushek and Jack O’Brien. Our theme music is by scissy himself rate review and follow every episode wherever you listen to podcasts new episodes out every week and be sure to check out our website and online.com for the top news stories and pharma marketing.