Joyce Ercolino, director of digital excellence and customer experience at Harmony Biosciences, shares her go-to pharma CX framework with Marc Iskowitz.

She also delves into how medical marketers can infuse more empathy into the design of their own CX. 

Lecia Bushak explains how the Biden administration is targeting Latinos in a new election-year healthcare spot. 

Jack O’Brien leads us through Pfizer’s rumored DTC platform ‘Pfizer for All,’ along with Midol’s latest period education campaign and Eli Lilly’s Caitlin Clark sponsorship.

Music by Sixième Son

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Note: The MM+M Podcast uses speech-recognition software to generate transcripts, which may contain errors. Please use the transcript as a tool but check the corresponding audio before quoting the podcast.

[00:00] Hey, it’s Marc [00:02] we’ve seen it in the general economy and increasingly we see it in health care too companies that flex their technology and capabilities to meet the customer where they are. [00:10] Whether the customers are sick patient or busy HCP are the ones people tend to gravitate toward. [00:15] The logic is that if I have a good experience with a brand? [00:18] Chances are are more likely to be very loyal to it. [00:20] simple right [00:22] but we’re not talking about Airlines or buying shoes. [00:24] are the keys to customer experience in Pharma marketing the same as in other Industries [00:29] Joyce Ercolino, director of digital excellence and customer experience at Harmony Biosciences says there are some universal aspects of CX [00:36] When I interact with a company, I want to be treated as if there’s a pre-existing relationship. [00:40] Two, simplicity is essential. [00:43] Just one extra step one extra click can make the Difference and three there’s a bottom line linked studies show that firms that make customer experience a key strategic driver to their business strategy and have superior CX tend to have more customer loyalty and grow their revenue faster as well. [00:59] But here’s where it gets tricky. [01:00] You need all the touch points along the Continuum to work well. [01:03] If customers have a bad experience at any point along the way it can fall apart. [01:07] This week on the show Ercolino who works with field teams to ensure that they and the HCP have a good experience. [01:12] discusses some of the biggest friction points for Pharma [01:15] and a framework for creating CX from user design to delivering on that design and making good experienced CX perhaps most importantly she explains how fellow marketers can infuse more humanity and empathy into the design of their own CX [01:28] and Lecia’s here with the health policy update and Marc today I’ll recap a new Healthcare ad launched by the Biden administration ahead of the elections which focuses on reaching the Latino community. [01:38] In Jack what’s trending in Healthcare social media this week this week? We’re talking about Pfizer for all My Dolls’ period education campaign and Eli Lilly sponsorship of Caitlin Clark’s team ahead of the WNBA season tipping off. [01:51] I’m Marc Iskowitz editor at large and welcome to the MM+M Podcast Medical Marketing and Media’s show about healthcare marketing writ large. [02:14] Joyce a great to speak with you again and welcome to the MM+M Podcast. [02:17] Marc pleasure to be with you today really. Thank you for [02:20] having me on the show absolutely. [02:22] so [02:23] If you had to describe to someone, what CX looks like in this business, you’d probably say to them. [02:28] think about how an MSL or a rap a pair [02:31] or an hcp consumer of patient interacts with Pharma content. [02:35] You know you want to allowing them to click one time not three times on a website or empowering them to get through to an operator more quickly. [02:42] removing friction throughout the business, that’s the key to [02:45] customer experience [02:47] and there’s external CX and internal CX so we start our discussion by focusing on the external. [02:53] But just to set the stage here to level set. [02:55] Why is CX such an in-demand skill set for employees and pharmacies? [03:00] I think [03:01] to work [03:02] aaryan’s is an in-demand skill set [03:05] period [03:06] where in Pharma so it’s important in our industry, but it’s important in all Industries [03:10] so just think about all the customers and all the companies. I should say that you engage with. [03:16] We’re always a customer. [03:17] right [03:18] and [03:19] if you don’t have a good experience with that Brand and it could be a brand you’re very loyal to your airline that you fly frequently. [03:25] You have a certain expectation of the service that they’re going to provide and especially if you have an ongoing relationship with them. [03:33] you want them to know you and you want to be treated as if [03:37] There’s a relationship established there. [03:39] And what we see is that you know companies that? [03:43] Have better customer experience. It’s part of their business strategy. It’s a key strategic driver to their business strategy. [03:53] so [03:53] that’s really across all companies not just Pharma [03:57] and customer experience needs to be integrated across the business as well. [04:02] So, it’s not just something that’s in Pharma or in marketing. [04:07] Because what we also see is engaged employees. [04:10] No matter what the business are happier and when they’re happier. They’re delivering better customer experience for their customers. [04:18] So, it’s really kind of a virtual. [04:20] virtuous cycle if you will [04:22] That you can provide better customer experience if it’s important to your business if it’s important to your employees. [04:29] It’s if it’s important to your customers you have better outcomes. So everyone tends to be a little happier and more productive. [04:35] Yeah, I think I think you hit the nail on the head there you want to be treated as if there’s a pre-existing relationship that’s [04:40] That’s certainly true. [04:41] What is the current status Quo in customer service? [04:45] Excuse me customer experience. [04:47] And what’s the status Quo in the farm industry? [04:51] I think [04:52] you’re a few statistics because some they help you kind of have context right. [04:56] in in the world within CX these days according to Adobe [05:00] 80% of businesses see customer experience as a competitive differentiator. [05:06] So it’s it’s not just something that’s nice to do. It’s actually driving the business right. [05:11] And then if you look at far as to research, what far is there is also telling us is that companies that have superior customer experience. [05:19] There are growing their revenue at 5.7 times faster than competitors. [05:24] So again, it’s hitting the bottom line. [05:27] even Price Waterhouse [05:30] They found that 73% of consumers consider CX and important Factor in their purchasing decisions. [05:38] So there is a positive link a a you know bottom line impact. [05:44] to customer loyalty and Company success [05:48] through customer experience [05:50] and it’s no different in Pharma [05:51] So you think people actually? [05:53] will [05:54] it will dictate which [05:57] you know what their preferences for for companies depending on the [06:01] experience that they might have with a company’s portal or [06:04] you know getting on a drug that kind of thing. [06:06] I mean. [06:08] have [06:09] a better customer experience [06:12] across a business [06:13] getting your medication. [06:15] You know staying on your medication even if you have your your medication ship to you. Let’s say you do you know three month. [06:22] Three months mail order right, but if it comes on time and it’s really reliable you’re going to be happy with that. [06:30] male order shipment [06:31] I can tell you from you know members in my family that have done mail order shipment and then it didn’t come on time. [06:39] And it was a real stressor, because then they’d have to you know call and get their their prescription. You know transferred to the pharmacy before it run out with two days and you know and then it was a [06:49] stressful situation right [06:51] So you know making sure that your systems and everything are working. [06:56] Well, and write and in a timely fashion because that’s what’s important to the customer. [07:01] Somebody getting their medication on time. [07:03] It’s business critical. [07:05] Sure and that last mile. [07:07] I’m sure there’s a lot of sort of elasticity. Oh. [07:09] You know I want to go with this company because they use this specialty pharmacy and they like you say they get the drug on time. [07:16] Um, it’s really a novelty to me to hear. [07:19] that [07:20] the drug business is becoming more sensitive. [07:23] to [07:23] customer experience and I might you know prefer one brand or whatever another I guess it depends if the chronic medication and there’s and there’s multiple choices you can imagine absolutely that that would Factor in. [07:34] You you maid of the analogy earlier about you know there’s many different potential friction points. [07:40] Yeah in the marketing ecosystem. Kind of like a football team. You know you have the rep the hcp the office. [07:46] so getting fulfillment hub services, which you know help to get [07:51] the patient on drug [07:54] Having an engaging relationship with the doctor. [07:57] and [07:58] you I think in your role you work with field teams to ensure that they and the hcp have a good. [08:03] CX what are some of the most sort of metal some friction points for customers that you see throughout your area of the business. [08:09] And how does that manifest and how farmers should focus at CX efforts? [08:13] My organization’s specialises in treating. [08:17] for rare disease [08:18] So, I think using that as an example in rare disease you see that it takes. [08:24] a long time for patients to be properly diagnosed [08:27] Um that’s a constant challenge to reduce that time to diagnosis which can take between 6 to 10 years. [08:34] Of going to multiple. [08:36] Physicians specialists not getting the right diagnosis sometimes getting actually on the wrong medication. That’s treating a symptom not the underlying. [08:45] you know [08:46] problem [08:47] or disease and then you you know you eventually get to the right physician and you get the medication you need but it’s [08:54] been a long journey. [08:56] And with that there’s a lot of stress for the patient. [09:01] Going through that it’s very emotional to emotional for their families and impacts their lives and impacts their work it impacts their relationships. [09:09] So what we really try to do is make sure that. [09:13] the patient advocacy organizations [09:16] the Physicians and you know the Salesforce are really well trained on understanding the disease state. [09:23] And unresolved symptoms because a lot of times in rare disease you may need. [09:29] More than one therapy or you know you you may be on one treatment, but it’s not completely. [09:34] resolving all your symptoms so [09:37] A lot of times patients, can you know they kind of settle they’ll say I’m okay, but they’re not really okay. [09:43] Um they’ve just come to settle you know like sort of accept that. [09:47] this is As Good as It Gets [09:49] and [09:51] teaching [09:52] and educating around disease and that you know. [09:55] Patients can expect more things can be better. [09:59] Just to ask the write probing questions on the on the patient side. You know are you doing is as well as you can or on the physician side to ask those more probing questions and [10:08] dig a little more into I’m okay. [10:11] That’s really important. [10:12] So we run into that a lot is making sure that that education is there. [10:18] And then if you’re in specialty pharmacy. [10:20] which we happen to be [10:21] there’s there are those additional steps for you know hub and prior authorisation and SP so again their needs to be education that it’s not as simple as [10:32] going to you know Walgreens or CVS [10:35] the physician calls it in and you pick it up three or four hours later. [10:38] so having [10:40] Expectations yeah setting expectations around the process, how long it takes? [10:46] And then having the right people in place. You know reimbursement managers and so on. [10:51] To check in with either the patient or the the Physicians office you know those things that’s what’s really important. [10:57] To make sure that everything’s moving along and everyone. [11:00] understands [11:01] what the process is [11:03] what it takes and where you are in that process? [11:05] very important [11:07] Sure, so it’s a really a lot of attention to detail. [11:10] Let’s talk about you know the marketing and business goals that are associated with this. [11:15] Getting people to stay on your brand to be inherence to the brand. [11:19] To get that initial script or refill to increase prescribing there’s all things that marketers. [11:25] Would be engaged in on the day-to-day basis. [11:27] How does CX dovetail with some of the marketers goals? [11:32] Show that every marketer communicator. [11:35] sales or even you know medical employee understand that [11:38] simplicity is essential in everything that we do. [11:41] I took a class and behavioral design and it was really enlightening to me and I did that to really help inform the work that I do. [11:50] what you really learn when you dig a little bit into behavioural design and this was a behavioral design for health class but [11:58] What you you learn is that any additional step? [12:03] Any additional time that’s required. [12:06] To do something additional click on a website you know form. That’s a little too long. [12:11] A call to Action button, that’s just not clear enough. [12:15] whatever it is and [12:17] that all adds a level of cognitive burden and that little [12:22] additional burden or friction [12:25] That friction adds up. [12:26] And people don’t follow through. [12:29] so there’s really [12:31] an important to making things as simple for people as you can. [12:37] One of the things that I learned and I thought it was interesting was that. [12:41] for countries [12:43] where at the [12:45] DMV the Department of motor vehicles when you get your licence [12:49] renewed [12:50] they always ask you if you want to be an organ donor. [12:53] The country is that by default? [12:55] Opted you in that you are in organ donor. [12:59] And you had to opt out. [13:01] Right, so they the action was opting out vs. Opting in. [13:05] Those countries had a 30% higher rate of organ donation. [13:09] Just by virtue of the fact. [13:12] That people had to opt out that was friction. [13:15] So by default they raised. [13:17] And they call it eternalism sort of you know. [13:20] Fatherly action on on behalf of the greater good right. [13:24] um [13:25] they raised their organ donation just because of that. [13:28] so [13:29] it really can make a difference that one extra step that one extra click whether somebody does something you know they follow through. [13:36] And then the impact it can have. [13:38] To that individual or to the business. [13:41] So user design is really important. [13:44] Understanding you know that the customer journey. [13:47] Is really important and it just helps. [13:50] Make sure that you have a better experience. [13:53] Have less frictions so you know less is more it really does have. [13:58] a very Direct impact [14:00] now you have a framework that you’d like to share. Did you want to? [14:04] Say anything on that point. [14:05] I [14:06] did one other thing that [14:09] it’s also. [14:09] important [14:10] when you’re designing for [14:12] the X that [14:14] first [14:15] know you have to understand. What’s important to the customer right and create that and you normally you’re doing that by doing some research and some Journey [14:23] journey mapping [14:24] but then you need to deliver on it. [14:26] so you know there’s there’s two components they’re right you have to have the [14:30] the good design and place [14:33] and then you have to have sort of that hole. [14:35] Back end of how we’re going to deliver. [14:37] On that on what you designed and make it work and and make it stick and make it a good. [14:42] experience so [14:44] research looking at the data to understand the customer. [14:48] What their needs and preferences are? [14:50] To go into the design so that then. [14:53] You are making it the best customer experience for them. [14:57] You can’t just do it because you think hey this looks like a really nice. [15:01] You know web page or a nice form. You really have to understand where they are in their sort of. [15:06] You know they call the think field do. [15:08] Sort of stage you know where where is the customer and what are their needs and design for that? [15:14] Write the stages of change right, yes. [15:16] for cat process is that I can’t remember from my [15:19] psychology 101 but [15:22] that’s a great point you have to research this in order to implement these tenants of good CX [15:28] now you have a framework to share about you know when marketers are thinking about CX [15:33] which I was very intrigued to hear. [15:35] You know we had mercy x director on the show recently and when I asked her. [15:40] you know what has the farm industry Learned From several years of [15:45] incorporating behavioural science into marketing [15:48] and you know it’s been around for decades before that but it just seems to have kind of been in Vogue in the last 10 years. [15:54] She summed it up as saying people are predictably irrational so you have to understand like you’re saying people’s. [15:58] Unconscious biases and then kind of design accordingly in order to impact. [16:02] their behaviour so [16:03] excited to hear the framework that you like to share today. [16:07] So the course that I took on behavioral health one of the instructors or founders of the company. [16:13] Is Dan ariely and he actually wrote? [16:16] predictably irrational [16:18] so people are irrational. [16:19] And like you said there are. [16:22] a lot of biases and [16:24] things like that [16:25] the framework that we learned about is the three beats. [16:29] And the three bees start with behavior right. What’s the desired behaviour that’s happening you know. [16:35] That you are looking for alright. What’s the current status of the behaviour and what’s the desired behaviour would what do you want? [16:41] the person to do [16:43] and then the second B are the barriers. [16:45] What’s the mindset and barriers that are in the way of that desired behaviour? [16:51] And then the third B are the benefits. [16:54] So what rewards points or other motivating factors? Are you going to put in place? [17:01] to help [17:02] remove the barriers. [17:03] to drive the desired behaviour [17:06] that could be you know simplicity and filling out a form it could be a price point. [17:11] But there’s a lot of things there’s a lot of barriers. [17:14] Like loss of version you know cognitive overload. [17:18] So Social norms all of these behavioural design. [17:23] Factors come in play. You know there’s a reason why they say you know. [17:27] Seven out of 10 or you know nine out of 10 dentists recommend this you know. [17:32] This toothpaste right they’ve been doing that for years because that’s a social norm. [17:36] Right, this is what everybody else is doing or you know you’re filling out a form and it’ll say you know nine at 9 out of ten people are looking at this property right now or you know you’re airbnb right. It’s the social norms. Are I have to book this property or I have to do something because everybody else is doing it. [17:51] You know 10 people just bought this dress and the last hour well. I [17:55] better get it before it goes. [17:57] so [17:58] all those little tricks and things kind of come into play. [18:02] Of what motivates or can potentially motivate somebody to do something? [18:07] And they’re used all across. [18:09] Retail and you know every every different you know transportation hospitality. [18:16] All the time we see them we don’t think about them but. [18:19] That’s a lot of what’s going on. [18:21] in the background [18:22] Right, so when I’m on Charles here. You know ordering dress shirts or whatever and it says. [18:27] You know 400 people that bought this shirt in the last month or something. I’m going to know that that’s [18:32] Social norms that’s a that’s a principle of behavioral science that they’re incorporating their right. That’s a good. It’s a good. [18:38] For you Mark and you’re gonna look good in that. [18:40] and it’s [18:41] also you know. [18:42] By two I should feel comfortable wearing purple come on that’s alright. [18:47] Okay, so thanks for sharing that framework Now talking about the framework in practice. [18:53] Designing the right journey to deliver a better CX required putting in the in place the right processes and technology. How do you kind of [19:00] You know take it from the the page. [19:02] To putting in practice. [19:04] It requires. [19:05] a full team effort [19:07] to put good customer experience in place because it’s not just someone who’s designing the experience. [19:13] Within a business any business. [19:15] You have to have the right strategy you have to get everyone aligned around that strategy and then who’s going to help you. [19:21] execute on [19:22] it so if you want to reduce the steps in in your [19:25] you know time to fill a prescription that’s going to require operations supply chain. You know multiple people it might require your hub. You know your your sales team has to be informed. [19:38] So it it’s a group effort so first you have to get everyone aligned around that strategy and make sure that everyone agrees. [19:45] and then [19:47] what’s what’s it going to take is it process improvement? [19:50] Is it also technology is it adding in an AI component that can help? [19:55] You know the business make decisions. [19:57] Faster you know based on data and some predictive Analytics to come up with some. [20:02] You know algorithm. That’s going to help you figure something out. [20:05] So it it’s a lot of touch points. It’s a lot of coordination within the business. [20:10] But ultimately you’re continuing to improve. [20:14] What you do within your business and your you’re ultimately optimising? [20:18] your business [20:20] the same [20:21] time sure and how do you measure CX progress? [20:25] to be measured [20:26] see how grass [20:27] can be measured in a lot of different ways. [20:29] There are some standard scores and measures that you’ve heard about is the net promoter score the nps score. [20:37] That’s the score that sometimes you’ll see in a survey where it’s one to ten and they’ll say how likely are you to recommend XYZ company to you know a friend. [20:46] Health systems like to quote that one, that’s yeah, so that’s that’s a very basic one. That’s been around for a long time the nps score. [20:54] But you can also have a c sat. [20:57] score [20:58] which is your customer satisfaction, so that’s measuring customer satisfaction how satisfied for you with this experience from not satisfied at all to somewhat satisfied to very satisfied. [21:10] You can Matt measure your CES score or your customer effort score. [21:16] So, how hard was it to do or how easy was it to do business with the company? [21:22] There are some sort of standard scores. [21:25] You can get more. [21:26] Evolved CX measurements like customer lifetime value which you know marketers look at all the time. [21:32] alright, it’s easier to [21:34] it’s easier to grow sales with customers that are all existing customers then bring in. [21:40] new customers [21:43] and then there are different Analytics around the customer journey and also around sentiment sentiments really important and in call centres. You know analysing voice with people are saying what people sort of aren’t saying. [21:55] but with you know machine learning and different algorithms you can kind of hear our people really happy with [22:01] What they’re saying you know? How are they feeling? [22:04] Um and then if you kind of Take That and you you look at that in pharmaceuticals, what what do we measure? [22:11] medication adherence [22:12] can be looked at [22:14] as a customer. [22:16] experience to a certain extent [22:18] measurement right or people staying on [22:21] on medication or therapy [22:23] health outcomes right across [22:26] you know [22:26] across larger health care right health outcomes [22:29] hospitals or measured on health outcomes right if you come back in the hospital within 30 days. [22:35] You’re not going to get you know. [22:37] Some of your Medicare payments right because you need to make sure you have good health outcomes and then even patients support programming engagement. [22:46] You spend a lot of time and money to put the right programs in place. [22:49] Are patients using them and are they really getting the benefits of? [22:53] You know nurse education you know the financial support the educational support because a lot of money. [22:59] goes into these programs but sometimes patients don’t really [23:03] completely understand and utilise everything that’s available to them. Yeah those are great. [23:09] And what about when it’s an internal? [23:11] CX effort when the employee is your customer [23:14] does the [23:15] measurement consideration change [23:17] so [23:18] at [23:18] the at the employee level that nps goes to the emps right so the employee net promoter score or the e set score the employee satisfaction score. [23:30] what a lot of HR [23:32] professionals will look at is just employee engagement so are they [23:36] Interacting with surveys or they interacting with a company LinkedIn page, you know are they liking and responding to what the the companies doing? [23:44] If you evolve that a little more, you can look at different employee experience measures that might be like an annual survey. [23:52] Where you’re looking at jobs satisfaction engagement well-being. [23:56] A great place to work. [23:58] company certification that’s measuring the employee experience and that’s a really [24:05] well-respected [24:06] survey that [24:07] is telling companies how they’re doing and they’re very proud when you know when they get great place to work. [24:13] good [24:14] certifications every year [24:16] you can do journey mapping with employees just like you can with customers and then. [24:20] Ultimately kind of that higher level employee experience is when you’re employee’s become advocate so are they on your LinkedIn saying you know. [24:29] Pound my company here. I’m I’m proud that. I you know I participated in this. [24:34] Bike to the shore. [24:36] Or you know for MS or something like that. There are advocating on behalf of what the company is doing because they’re engaged. [24:43] the companies doing and they believe [24:45] believe in [24:46] it so they’re really your most loyal. [24:49] Sort of customers externally and just like you can have a brand advocate who does the same thing on the on the customer side right. [24:56] They’re the most valuable customers because [24:59] then they become over time and an advocate can become an influencer right because you’re saying something. [25:05] On behalf of the Brand on behalf of the company. [25:08] True and I agree with you. You know there really is just sort of recognition. [25:12] That you hear an industry conference is like our own that we had this past week. [25:17] And it’s just seems like it is it is an imperative amongst marketing these days and in the two work? [25:23] You know just as imperative as much as omni channel as an imperative you do here. [25:28] CX is as well so [25:30] I’m going to ask you for a couple of the of examples you know to the extent that you feel comfortable sharing who you’ve been impressed with. [25:35] Delivering good customer experience exactly, yeah. [25:39] Well, I would. [25:41] Immediately the first. [25:44] company and example that comes to mind is Chewy [25:48] this is not Pharma but [25:51] everyone talks about Amazon and Disney you know a lot of different. [25:56] Companies that you’ve heard before but I can say myself. [25:59] I’ve had wonderful experiences with chewing. [26:03] For those who are uninitiated chewy is Chewie is an online. [26:07] pet [26:08] food and pet toys and anything for your your pets. [26:13] And they go above and beyond to help pet parents. [26:16] Have happy happy pets. [26:18] Send food to home. [26:20] toys to home they really take a lot of the friction out of [26:25] food delivery and things like that just like you see a lot of you know a lot of times the boxes coming off of [26:30] Amazon I’ll see if [26:32] it see it even within my community it’s [26:34] chipman’s from chewy [26:37] what I experienced was and I’ve seen people post this online. [26:42] and I posted about it myself online even on my on my LinkedIn [26:46] is [26:47] I had. [26:48] Some food at home. I had over ordered food because I had a fussy cat and you know she would eat this and then she wouldn’t eat this. [26:55] But she over time. [26:57] Did become ill and she passed away? [27:01] So I had this really expensive cat food and it was a case that wasn’t even opened it was still in the wrap. [27:08] Called them up hey can I you know can I send this back? It’s not even opened. [27:12] And they said you know please donate the food to a shelter make credited me the money. [27:18] And then they sent me flowers like a week later. [27:21] To you know Express condolences at the loss of my pet because they know. [27:26] Pets are family and it’s it’s a really great. [27:29] It’s a really great loss to [27:31] you know [27:31] to someone when they lose their pet. [27:33] And that’s showing empathy that’s being human. That’s understanding the customer where they are. [27:40] at that time they could have just credited the account but [27:44] sending and they could have just sent a card. [27:46] And that I would have been even you know really happy with the card. [27:49] But when they send flowers it just takes it to a different level. [27:54] and [27:56] it you know. [27:57] you can’t [27:58] put a value. [27:59] on that kind of feeling when [28:02] they’re treating you. [28:03] like family you know I [28:06] I shouted out you know to them on social media. [28:09] Got right back to me. We’re there for you anything else we can do for you. [28:13] They’re not even giving you like can social media responses. They’re talking to you. You know one on one. [28:19] You know we we can’t be good pet. [28:22] You know we can’t do what we do. [28:25] With the exception of good pet parents like you. [28:28] And when you when you go through an experience like that you’re like wow, you know this is um. [28:33] this is really [28:35] this is wonderful. [28:36] I mean, it’s a [28:37] even if you pay a little more for [28:40] their service [28:42] you know I’m going to be a chewy customer for life and I have now become a brand advocate and I’ve told all of these people. [28:49] about this great customer experience and I [28:51] you know [28:52] wrote a blog post about it and [28:54] post it on social media about it. I remember reading that it comes back to them. [29:00] How many fault they’re just doing they’re not doing it so that I’m going to to blog or post. They’re doing it because they care. [29:08] and [29:08] that’s that’s a great customer service. That’s a great customer experience. [29:13] Now we can’t all do things exactly like that, but there’s a lot of learning there to be human to have empathy. [29:20] um [29:21] that’s really important. So I think in the you know in in the pharmaceutical industry. We really have to understand if someone’s. [29:27] Going through a clinical trial. [29:29] and they have a [29:30] you know a rare and complicated disease. [29:33] Cancer, you know whatever. [29:35] You know it’s it’s not easy. There’s a lot. They’re going through. [29:39] so you really have to design the experience not only for them to be able to take the medication but [29:45] can they get to the clinical trial or you making it easy for them? Are you helping them with transportation or you know are you understanding? They need time for recovery or [29:54] you know for food or meals? [29:56] I mean we have to be human. It’s about medicine right. [30:00] so [30:01] that’s what I think we have to kind of like put it you know. [30:05] at the heart and at Center and think about that all the time even [30:09] when we’re [30:10] creating content and we’re putting information out there people are busy. [30:14] Doctors are busy you have to make the content easy relevant. [30:18] You know they they don’t have time to read a lot, but they can come back and read more. [30:22] And health literacy all of that. [30:25] Goes into consideration for what you’re creating and then creating that good. You know that good experience. [30:31] And making it helpful to someone because ultimately that’s what you’re trying to do. You’re trying to help someone solve a problem it might be a health problem. [30:38] but [30:39] we are trying to provide them. [30:40] You know something that’s going to help them. [30:43] Do better solve a problem have better health have better quality of life. [30:48] And to Leverage that the relationship as you say that we’re talking about health and very few companies. [30:53] even the chewies [30:55] although they had they have a very. [30:57] Special relationship with their customers you know visa V pets and pet parents. [31:02] Pharma has a very special relationship that some other companies might envy you know in terms of taking care of patients health. [31:08] and [31:10] clinical trials which allow patients to access very innovative therapies that might extend their life and you know transform their lives you name it. [31:18] So many opportunities here you know to ensure that that the that that. [31:23] CX is a good one nice. So you’re generally positive about recent developments and their impact on CX good to know. [31:31] hi any closing thoughts Joyce [31:33] thank you. Just have to always. [31:36] You know always have that that human empathetic filter on. [31:41] And remember that everybody’s a customer everybody’s a human. Everyone’s trying to get something done or learn something everyone has a problem to solve or a burden that they’re they’re carrying with them. [31:52] And I always keep the Maya Angelou quote- on my wall. [31:58] People will forget what you said. [32:00] People will forget what you did but people will never forget how you made them feel. [32:06] So it’s really about. [32:08] Feeling & empathy and you know designing for that and if you can do that as an organisation as a brand. [32:15] And lead with empathy and innovation. [32:18] then [32:19] I think you can be really successful. [32:22] Great well, this is a fascinating discussion I learned a tan. [32:25] About customer experience and in this industry, and I’m sure our listeners. Will too so. [32:30] Thank you so much. Joyce [32:31] you’re welcome. [32:33] Health policy update with lesser busher the Biden administration has launched a new Healthcare ad. [32:40] As part of his re-election campaign. [32:42] It’s in Spanglish or a mix of English and Spanish and targets Latino communities. [32:47] The add presses a theme that the administration has been quite vocal about. [32:52] biden’s efforts to lower drug prices and health care costs [32:55] the 30 second video touches on the administration’s efforts like passing the inflation reduction act. [33:01] and capping out of pocket costs for a month supply of insulin for seniors on Medicare at 35 Dollars little Joe Biden [33:09] he battled the Greedy corporations and one. [33:12] He lowered the price of insulin for our abuelos. [33:15] from 400 to 35 dollars [33:18] See where that 35 Dollars yes, talu chando fighting to lower more costs. [33:23] Joe Biden & campaign manager Julie Chavez Rodriguez [33:29] Said in a statement that quotes for Latino Communities are ready facing Healthcare disparities. [33:34] This election isn’t about politics. It’s about survival. [33:38] the ad also accused former President Trump of getting too close to corporations and big Pharma [33:44] Rodriguez noted that Trump’s re-election would mean that quotes millions of Latinos and working families. [33:50] Would lose their health insurance while Healthcare costs and the cost of prescription drugs. [33:55] Would shoot through the roof in order to benefit Trump’s big Pharma donors? [34:01] Trump has pushed back on some of biden’s attacks. [34:03] And claimed he would also enact drug pricing reform policies. [34:08] He has stated on his campaign website that as president he would sign an executive Order [34:13] telling quotes [34:14] big Pharma that we will only pay the best price they offer to foreign Nations [34:18] the United States is tired of getting ripped off. [34:22] biden’s latest video is part of a new 14 million dollars [34:26] By his re-election campaign to launch TV digital and radio ads. [34:30] targeting minority communities in battleground States this month [34:34] I’m lesbian senior reporter at mmm. [34:39] funding [34:40] and this is the part of the broadcast when we welcome Jack O’Brien tell us. [34:43] What’s trending and health care hey Jack hey there Mark so as much as I wanted to talk about rfk Juniors brainworms. We have more important things to talk about for this segment. [34:51] So we’re going to talk about Pfizer for all the Financial Times report this week on a trademark application filed by the Pharma giant last month. [34:59] For a website and app providing medical information as well as mail order pharmacy and telehealth services to us patients. [35:05] The outlet spoke to a pair of people involved in the plans that said Pfizer for all would be a direct consumer platform focused as a health equity initiative. [35:13] And of course this follows Lily Direct which launched in the spring as yet another big Pharma company hoppin into the DTC pool. [35:20] Last I want to get your thoughts on it because we’re obviously starting to see this push in the post covid world of these big Pharma companies saying hey we need to. [35:29] Maintain or reclaim some of that great reputational game that we have that is obviously gone by the wayside. [35:35] And this seems like a way to obviously kind of cut out the Middleman if you will and say we’re going to go directly consumers. That’s where our brand is going to be. [35:42] And Pfizer is kind of taking the lead from Lily on this one in that regard. [35:46] Yeah, and you know the last year or two I would say there’s been a lot of scrutiny in congress. [35:53] You know about Hydra costs and big farmers role in them. Obviously you know we’ve seen the inflation reduction acts. [36:00] Passed and Bernie Sanders as we’ve discussed a lot on This podcast has led the charge at the Senate health committee. [36:07] grilling pharmaceutical executives about hydro costs [36:10] So, it’s really coming at a time that we’ve seen farmer’s reputation drop in the public’s eye. [36:17] There was a recent patient view survey that we covered that showed that big farmer’s corporate reputation declined throughout 2023. [36:25] after peaking in 2021 and 2022 [36:28] so that period of sort of Goodwill of how the public sees you know these big Pharma companies appears to be kind of on the decline now. [36:36] And so I it makes sense that Pfizer would be trying to gain some of the back through efforts like this especially given the fact that drug pricing has been such a huge national conversation. They have often argued in Congress that the middlemen you know the pharmacy benefit managers are the ones to blame and so it appears that they’re sort of. [36:55] Again shifting the blame onto the the middlemen in this effort. [36:59] to sort of [37:01] I guess put big farm on a better footing. [37:03] Mark I want to bring you in here because it’s really interesting to see kind of [37:07] I don’t want to say that there’s group think necessarily in the farm industry, but like as we’ve seen with with different companies leaving bio. There is a sort of like well, if you do this, then other companies will be more inclined to do something so when Lily came out with Lily Direct [37:21] in March I’m sure there was some rumbling with you know the likes of Pfizer and other big Pharma companies of oh we need to be able to have our own DTC platform now. We’re seeing Pfizer I’m sure that throughout the rest of the year. We’ll probably see other companies, but what are your thoughts on seeing these companies really start to embrace this idea of like we’re gonna go right to the consumer. This is where they’re going to be able to interact with us on a brand level. [37:41] Where they’re always kind of been that distance before. [37:44] Yeah, it’s a really good. You know trend it’s [37:48] Something that you know we we saw during covid actually you know there was one brand that affects see that that we wrote about which was a vaginal contraceptive gel. [37:58] kind of integrated telemedicine button within the [38:02] Brand’s marketing access assets excuse me [38:04] so kind of allowed a consumer to connect red digital banner, ad [38:08] or via the brand’s website with a provider or there was an asynchronous kind of situation where you could fill out a questionnaire and then you could do an Acer synchronous check with your provider and in this case. [38:21] it also allowed the consumer to [38:25] get help with [38:26] prior authorisation and you know pay or support market access [38:30] that was sort of tied to a brand. [38:33] These two platforms that one that was launched. I believe back in January Lily Direct [38:38] Which is specifically gop ones? [38:41] And now Pfizer for all. [38:42] Which has an I don’t think correct me from wrong, but they haven’t really specified which disease states that are going to be using that for now to be a broader approach rather than the glp ones that we’re seeing from Lily okay, alright and then for Pfizer is all actually you know scale back. It’s glp one ambition is quite a bit right because of that negative trial data. They had so chances are probably it may not be won the glp ones but you know there are basically two aspects to it. You have one you have to tell a health. [39:08] Um aspect which you know it’s more convenient. It’s health care in the palm of the person’s hand it’s often cheaper than having to go to the doctor. [39:15] potentially [39:16] as long as there’s no you know console fee and two is the mail order pharmacy piece. [39:22] And that also could disperse some savings. [39:26] There are some risks you know inherent with that in terms of you know when you have. [39:33] a situation where [39:35] the [39:36] the farm you know the the pharmacy that the telehealth service is contracting with. [39:41] Is basically trying to get patients the drug at the lowest costs, so they may be you know look to compounders, but that’s not going to be an issue here with the Pharma DTC models. [39:51] And but basically you know you. [39:53] Potential there is that it improves access because you have cheaper delivery it’s mail order. [39:58] And you know that there could be monthly subscription fees that could lead some people to drop out and potentially interrupt care. [40:06] But overall it potential there is to improve access so it seems to be a good you know a good thing you know overall and just one thing before we go on to the second part of our trend segment is there was a quote that was included in the Financial Times article as wanted to. [40:22] Throw out there from a professor ucsd who said Pfizer is trying to go for a softer position that they are not just a pharmaceutical manufacturer. [40:29] They are partnered with you and your diseased journey and I spoke with Kate Cronin from Moderna [40:35] last week for a story that I’m writing by the time you listen this it’ll be on our website. [40:39] Talking about how Moderna but also these other Pharma companies are really making a concerted effort to not just be a Pharma brand, but there’d be something closer to like consumer health and wellness. [40:49] And this seems to be something very similar where Pfizer is saying like oh, we’re going to have this DTC platform because we want you to engage with us in a way. That’s not just [40:57] necessarily you know. [40:59] Whenever you get a vaccine we want you to choose Pfizer when you’re choosing to get your RSV vaccine or whether you’re choosing your different options. We want you to be able to. [41:07] To go to Pfizer so it’s interesting to see that making that. [41:10] Sort of change and it’ll be interesting to see how this all plays out because I can imagine they’re not going to be the last one to do this. [41:15] absolutely and [41:17] you know the other interesting thing in terms of bypassing you know all those middle Men like you said Jack and just kind of going direct. [41:23] Is that especially like it depending on the disease state there could be little. [41:27] To other little benefits like with the glp ones for instance. [41:30] if a patient goes through their payor [41:33] For glp one of the payer is going to oftentimes recommend lifestyle. [41:37] Recommendations to begin with and those can be confusing you know people you know that don’t necessarily. [41:43] If they you know they’ve tried a lot of lifestyle things already. [41:46] It might not be straightforward for them so going through to a direct situation that kind of buy bypassing the payer. [41:52] They’re going to bypass those lifestyle recommendations as well and they’re going to get quicker access to the drugs, so it could be you know. [41:58] talking about customer experience it could be a better experience for patients all around I think and increase loyalty to the drug company to your unless this point this could be a play to regain some of that mojo that they got during the pandemic so to speak in terms of [42:11] better in the eyes of consumers the next one is from my doll which is launching its period talked education campaign it was launched late last week. [42:20] The bear brand is champion candid period conversations to help and the normalisation of discomfort and further menstrual equity with its partners Victoria Garrick brown, and Dr Charis Chambers the period doctor for those who follow her on social media. [42:35] It’s yet another brand tackling the topic of menstruation and period education head on which I know that we’ve covered extensively. [42:41] On our website and thinking just to the folks that thinks that I spoke with last week about their Natasha leggero. [42:47] Campaign that was launched. [42:48] And it should be known that the bear Brand’s no apologies period campaign won several mmm awards in 2022. [42:56] Which then inspired bear seeing red campaign last year? So this is really something that Bear has committed a lot of resources. [43:02] And Investment to the space. [43:04] Less, I know that you and I have both written a lot about. [43:07] Period education being able to have this the thing that I’ve always heard from bran leaders. I’m sure you’ve heard similarly is. [43:13] These are topics that shouldn’t be taboo they’re shouldn’t be the stigmatization to them but because of various societal factors. [43:20] There are and so it’s all of them kind of saying we need to Pick A Part this and be able to empower. [43:25] This patient population which is you know 50% of the population when you think about it. [43:30] Yeah, absolutely you know there’s historically been a lot of stigma around you know certain aspects of women’s health like menstruation. [43:38] menopause perimenopause things like that reproductive health [43:42] and we’ve seen a lot of campaigns as you mentioned Jack recently kind of target. [43:47] Those specific you know changes in the body as you Age Like paramount and pause and menopause. [43:53] period health menstruation [43:56] and so there’s been an increase attention to it, but one of the things that stood out to me and I was reading about this. [44:01] Um new Bayer campaign was that it listed that 50% of people with periods reported. They did not know what was happening to their body. [44:09] When they first experience period symptoms. [44:12] And only about 40% of respondents could name the four phases of the menstrual Cycles so even though we’ve seen increased attention. There’s obviously still a big gap in big opportunity for education. [44:24] even for most women so [44:27] I think you know it’s always an important thing to highlight in a campaign. [44:32] yeah, and it’s one of those things that shouldn’t be as I feel like people always say it’s oh, it’s so tough to talk about or how do you advertise around it but we’ve [44:39] Countless ones I can’t even I truly can’t even think of a number of campaigns that we’ve covered they have some sort of. [44:45] Discussion about tampons or underwear that address leaking during your period or something like that, it’s like. [44:52] This is something that people go through and have gone through for. [44:55] Hundreds thousands of years and it’s like this is not new but it’s actually talking and marketing around it. [45:01] Is something that we’re starting to see more and more of Mark I want to get your thoughts on this. [45:05] Yeah, thanks. I think anything you know obviously this is a [45:08] Extension you know of my dolls you know marketing work in the past and as we said that they want. [45:15] Picked up a number of awards last year you know for the seeing red campaign. [45:20] And you know there was also a another campaign that. [45:25] Peered earlier this year. [45:26] From period the youth powered non-profit. [45:30] That was addressing the need and understand it which was apparently. [45:36] You know not taking seriously it was under threat. You know they the amount of menstrual. [45:40] education going on in schools in Florida [45:43] and so that this was. [45:45] a sneaky type face that replaced [45:48] the period in the in the typeface with with period education kind of to make the point. [45:53] That you know when you need to. [45:56] maintain [45:57] education around human sexuality reproductive health and the high schools were actually there was below 9th Grade because oftentimes you know young girls would. [46:07] Sometimes get their periods you know that failure early age so it’s important to have that at younger ages as well. [46:14] So you know all for it absolutely no, it’s very empowering to see that. I know that we cover a lot of campaigns that usually we’re at empowerment it can be. [46:22] You know interchangeable with I think it bunch of different goals for when you’re talking about in the case of what can be young girls. It’s certainly. [46:29] valuable in that sense, so good on them and for our final story we’re going to the world of the wnba the season tips off tonight and by the season I mean Caitlin Clarks [46:39] professional debut she has taken the [46:41] basketball world both men and women by Storm [46:44] and Eli Lilly is taking note of that. [46:46] Eli Lilly is partnering with the Indiana fever which drafted Caitlin Clark number one overall. [46:52] To have Jersey patch on their shoulder and they will have extensive logo and advertising throughout. [46:58] their home Arena Indianapolis which is also where Eli Lilly [47:02] is based [47:03] listeners will also recall a recent episode I did of the mmm. Fast break where parigo which is the manufacturer of over the counter birth control pill Opel [47:13] partner with the ewmba ahead of the draft to promote. [47:15] It’s it’s birth control pill. [47:19] It Mark I want to bring you because I know that you’re a big basketball had everyone wants a piece of the Caitlin Clark action and clearly Eli Lilly was not going to pass on that opportunity especially in their. [47:28] their home City [47:29] absolutely and she’s you know. [47:31] Why wouldn’t she want to capitalise on that you know it is interesting that Lily has gotten in on the action, but you know it shows that she’s a pretty safe. [47:41] person to associate a brand with obviously when you [47:44] choose to associate you know your brand within influencer, you responsible for their good and their bad but [47:49] you know she’s just so poised and so professional coming out of college she’s performed. [47:55] At the highest levels not only of college, but you know in the NBA All-Star weekend. You know going up against Steph curry the best competition. There is and you know. [48:04] Came pretty close to beating him. We’re just kind of stayed with him at least. [48:08] and so [48:09] Pharma being the ultra uber conservative industry that it is you know just kind of a testament to how. [48:15] How she is and that you know we’ve all seen. [48:18] The stories about how underly underpaid you know the wnba. [48:22] Players are and you know she’ll make up a lot of that with responsive or endorsements. [48:27] and so it let it begin absolutely I want to bring you in because to Mark’s point obviously the [48:35] we saw this year being the first year that the women’s basketball tournament out. [48:40] Had more viewers than the men’s basketball tournament a largely in part of Caitlin Clark and you can obviously see a pharmacist saying. [48:46] hey, we want to be able to align our brand with something like that and we’ve obviously covered before with New York presbyterian doing the [48:53] The baby onesies with the Mets or you know nycfc having their partnership with a PBM but for a major you know probably one of the top three most well-known. [49:03] Pharma brands to be with one of the top athletes in the world makes all too much sense yeah for sure I mean I [49:09] you know I don’t pay attention to sports as as much as you all do here at M&M so I probably the [49:14] the least knowledgeable on this topic but [49:17] just the fact that you said that they’re you know the wnba has [49:21] seen more viewers than ever before this past year. That’s really notable to me and obviously the fact that Eli Lilly is aiming to sort of capitalize on that and optimise their brand. [49:32] You know there is a is quite notable. I also know saw that they are. [49:38] Kind of labeling themselves as a health equity partner of the Indiana fever do we know if they’re kind of doing some sort of initiatives on that front or like? [49:46] How they’ll be you know moving health equity forward through this there wasn’t anything that I saw in the press release I can imagine that it will probably be a multi fast and this was something that I talked about with. [49:56] the folks from Capital RX when they have their partnership with the nycfc as it’s not usually just a [50:02] Jersey patch, it’s activations that they’ll have at the Stadium I know that when I spoke with the folks at nyp one thing that they did with the Mets last year was they had a bunch of different health and wellness. [50:12] Activations at Citi field, so it’ll be interesting to see how they roll it out throughout the season you know the the season tips off tonight for Caitlyn Clark and then they’ll have their first home game on Thursday against the New York Liberty so I can imagine that until the season ends and the Fall we’ll start to see more and more. [50:28] Going on there and obviously Lilly can do whatever they want because it’s Indianapolis where they call them hey. Oh, yeah definitely a timely move. Yes and the good to see another story arising from the M&M Sports desk. [50:40] Thanks for joining us on this week’s episode of the mmm podcast be sure to listen to next week’s episode we’ll be joined by a special guest. [50:50] That’s it for this week. The mmm. Podcast is produced by Bill Fitzpatrick Gordon failure less abhishekam. [51:06] the top news stories and Farmer marketing